Wireless vs Hardline to boom

[Mark LeBlanc]

Morning all,

General question for yall. When mixing a movie do any of you still run a line a line out to boom? I ask because I'm having difficulties on the show I'm on now. It's drama via screams and yells followed by whispered dialog. When wireless I've got the gain on the Lectro SM set to 0 and when a particular actress yells, she pegs the unit and I'm getting distortion. The only solution I've found so far is to bring out the old 200 foot snake and run a hard line to the boom, then control gain on the 788t. I just ordered an adapter cable with a higher resister values to try an help the issue, but in general do many of you guys still hard line? I love the sound of hardline, but somewhat pain in the rear...

Peace

[noni]

Hi ,

I like to use for a "wireless boom"  Sound Devices MM1 preamp first and then connect  like a line level to tx. MM1 is very nice preamp, good limiter , 80-160Hz cut, nice gain , and you can use it with old T power mic's . I think that it was mention here before , so you can check it out . Also you can use it as a hardline , when your boom op is to far , you can run cable from him and have a good line level signal to your mixer...

best regards

Novica Jankov

[Jeff Wexler]

Don Coufal and I still always have the main boom mic, Don's mic, hardwired back to the cart with a duplex cable. This is the way we have always done it, starting way back when this was the ONLY way it could be done. Over the years we have done shots using a wireless boom and wireless monitor of some sort but this has been for shots which really could not be done any other way. I think there is only a few sound teams that still use a hardwired duplex cable for the boom. I fully understand why the majority is using wireless boom now because it does give much greater flexibility to the boom operator, vital on a fast paced multi-camera episodic TV show. Using wireless for the boom there will always be compromises such as that which you are experiencing on your show. There is one exception to this which is the use of Zaxcom digital wireless for your boom. The Zaxcom wireless provides several features that are not available with any of  the other wireless systems in current use. Don and I still use duplex cable most of the time but I no longer have to worry about these compromises or sound quality issues when we do wireless boom work. The Zaxcom system first of all has wider dynamic range and lower noise floor so that scenes with wide dynamics rarely present a problem. Further, the Zaxcom wireless allows you full remote control of the mic preamp gain on the transmitter while it is on the actor --- as you know, this is where you need to make the primary gain change when dealing with a scene with wide dynamics. If you are having a frequency issue you can also remotely change the frequency, and of course the transmitter is also making its own recording.

Solving the problem when using Lectrosonics or any of the other wireless, you will have to just continue to manually tweak the transmitter gain between takes or abandon the wireless for a hardwired boom where you will have the control you need, control that you would have wirelessly if using Zaxcom wireless.

[Noah Timan]

Morning all,

General question for yall. When mixing a movie do any of you still run a line a line out to boom? I ask because I'm having difficulties on the show I'm on now. It's drama via screams and yells followed by whispered dialog. When wireless I've got the gain on the Lectro SM set to 0 and when a particular actress yells, she pegs the unit and I'm getting distortion. The only solution I've found so far is to bring out the old 200 foot snake and run a hard line to the boom, then control gain on the 788t. I just ordered an adapter cable with a higher resister values to try an help the issue, but in general do many of you guys still hard line? I love the sound of hardline, but somewhat pain in the rear...

Peace

For me it depends a little bit on the operator and his or her preferences, but most of the operators I work with will generally use a hard line in practical situations (interiors, studio, etc), on a film, for the reasons you note -- it allows me to ride the gain during a take, rather than set it on a transmitter and cross my fingers. 

On episodic television where one is shooting ten pages a day with two or three cameras, the cable rarely gets deployed, because things are simply moving too fast and the operator's position is changing too much of the time to chase him around with the hose. 

The new Zaxcom wireless apparently allows for gain riding on the transmitter right at the console, which is a pretty wonderful thing and eliminates the problem you note.  The problem there, of course, is that you have to be using a full Zaxcom system (Deva, Zaxcom mix surface, Zaxcom wireless) to take real advantage of that feature.  If you only have the wireless, I believe you can still adjust the Tx gain at the Rx end, but that requires doing it with pushbuttons as opposed to riding, and doing that while rolling doesn't seem like it would work very often. 

[soundtrane]

I've always run cable to boom, unless it was a situation where this was not practical. Having said this, I use the Lectro UH400a buttplug with my MKH50 or Sanken CS3e and never had a problem with distortion.

I have also worked with a British sound mixer (some years ago, as a third) who used his Audio Ltd 2020 Tx with the bullet cable for almost the entire film. The sound was very good. In fact, I would mix when the boom op was unwell (few days in the shoot) and the sound mixer (who had considerable experience as a boom op - much more than me) would boom. So I can actually say it sounded absolutely fine off the Cooper CS208 and a pair of Senn HD25 headphones...

-vin

[hemmerlinj]

Always try to use the duplex and resort to wireless only when it is absolutely needed.  Boomed on a feature last year.  Low-budget and we didn't have a MM1 or a UH400 to use.  Just had a denecke 48v mic power supply and a UM400.  We felt for one particular shot that using the wireless was going to work better, but after about 2 takes it just wasn't cutting it.  We ran the duplex out the window of the top floor of the apartment to the sliding glass door on the 2nd floor.  Had to run the cable to the far opposite side of the room.  Luckily there was plenty of furniture along the walls to hide the cable.  I think I had about 4 ft. to play with at the farthest point.  Plain and simple it made all the difference.  Being able to use the preamp in the mixer saved our asses for the shot.

J. Hemmerlin

[RPSharman]

While I typically go wireless, I did have a scene the other day recorded in a quiet, controlled set with quiet dialog.  That being a rarity for me, I happily and excitedly ran a cable.

If your SM is set for 0 and you are still "squaring" on your receiver, then something seems wrong.  Is it an SMa?  These are much hotter.  An attenuated cable might help in those extremes.  Perhaps a little help from the boom operator to balance it out a bit for you?  But you definitely do not want to be using an SM set for 0 for regular dialog.

[Mark LeBlanc]

I spoke with Lectro support yesterday and will try kicking up the resistor value to help tame the screams.  Much of the movie takes place on boats so running my 200 foot snake (HA river -- Snake..)  isn't practical..  Might look into the MM1 after a paycheck or two hits..

[glenn]

To remote the gain control of any TRX900 series transmitter only requires the IFB100 transmitter. It will adjust the gain remotely over a distance of up to 500 feet.

The Deva or Fusion with the IFB100 provide absolute value gain control knob functionality for the TRX900 series transmitters from the fader knobs on the recorder. These knobs are not typically used when on a sound cart so wireless preamp control is a good use for them.

The MIX12 or MIX8 control surfaces are not required for wireless remote control but if present, wireless preamp control can be assigned to them as well.

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

[Mark LeBlanc]

Glenn,

Is there a lag time when changing values?

[Scott Smith]

You didn't mention if the SM transmitter you have is standard gain or +10. It's very possible that the +10 version could be overloaded by a condenser mike, depending on the interface and mike output level.

While my boom ops (and cable guys) love the freedom of the wireless, I still prefer going hardwire wherever possible. Of course, there are some situations where it just isn't possible, so we always have it standing by in case.

[quote author=ranger14 link=topic=6006.msg46539#msg46539  When wireless I've got the gain on the Lectro SM set to 0 and when a particular actress yells, she pegs the unit and I'm getting distortion.

Peace

[Mark LeBlanc]

Scott,

Pretty sure I have a standard SM. How can you tell?  I agree, hard line is preferred, but so far this shoot, too much water for hardline, either on the water or shooting across a bayou.

[Richard Lightstone, CAS]

You can tell the firmware version when you turn the SM on. From the Lectrosonic site here is the information on firmware upgrades:

[table][tr][td]SM[/td][td][/td][td]There are 2 branches for the SM depending on whether the audio level is up 10 dB from the original SM. (Use version 2.x for units marked "+10".)[/td][/tr][tr][td]v2.3[/td][td]2008/10/22[/td][td]Added native support for blocks 470, 19 and 944, so existing product can be updated (with a board swap) to work on a new block. This version is otherwise identical to v2.2.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v2.2[/td][td]2007/06/26[/td][td]Changed power supply reset threshold for reliable wake-from-sleep operation by remote control. Only affects SMQ model, and then only when remote control is used for sleep and wake functions.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v2.1[/td][td]2007/03/19[/td][td]Changed keyboard scanning algorithm to quiet internal signals and reduce risk of noise pick-up.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v2.0[/td][td]2006/09/28[/td][td]Internal volume control settings have been altered to accommodate the new, 10 dB higher audio gain. Also pilot tone is now disabled in standby mode.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v8.0[/td][td]2008/10/22[/td][td]This version was created to handle a special case. If an older, non-plus-10-dB SM ever needs to be moved to a block not supported by firmware version 1.9 (i.e. blocks 470 and 19, or 944 if offered), this version offers native support for those blocks. It is otherwise identical to version 1.9.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.9[/td][td]2007/03/19[/td][td]Backport of version 2.1, so older SM units can have the benefit of quieter keyboard scanning. (Note that a backport of v2.2 is not required, as no SMQ transmitters ever shipped with version 1.x.)[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.8[/td][td]2006/07/07[/td][td]On some units and then only occasionally, a 15 kHz

whine is added to the audio after using an RM remote

control to "wake" the transmitter from standby.

Sleeping and waking the unit or powering the SM

off and on would correct it. This and later versions

remove the vulnerability.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.5[/td][td]2005/12/05[/td][td]Added "mode 6" and remote control capability (for RM product).[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.3[/td][td]2005/06/22[/td][td]Fixed bug where pilot tone was sometimes missing at

power up. Transmitter RF no longer radiates while

selecting compatibility mode.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.1[/td][td]2005/04/26[/td][td]Added standby mode and added countdown to lock/unlock functions.[/td][/tr][tr][td]v1.0[/td][td]2005/04/12[/td][td]First production release.

[/td][/tr][/table]

[Christian Holm]

Always cable here... Sometimes wireless for tricky walks and other situations (on water, cabel cant be visable, 360 shots and so on)

When we shoot wireless we use a sounddevices 302 mixer for phantom, limiter and listening for boom op giving the TX line signal.

As far as I can se here there is no Micron users here... thats the system we use.

//Christian

[bigmaho]

Glenn,

Is there a lag time when changing values?

Very slight, maybe 1/10 sec.  Usually if I have to drop the gain drastically during a take I do it while the actor is taking that 'power' breath before emoting.  As for the problem Ranger14 was asking about, I believe only the Zaxcom and Sony digital wireless systems offer practical remote gain control.  There is one other option that's also remote and takes about 1/10th of a second.  Have the boom person angle the mic away when she's about to scream.  I know, sometimes they take that breath and then fool you (and the next take when you know you won't be fooled they scream bloody hell... and so do you...)

Best,

Billy Sarokin

[Zack]

I've been using my UM400a transmitter on my boom op for my current shoot and frankly I'm loving it.  Sounds great, no distortion issues at all during quiet or loud dialog.  I can see going cable if we were just in a single controlled location, but when on the move a lot, multiple locations throughout the day, and many different obstacles in the way, wireless has made my workflow a breeze with hardly any noticeable effect to sound quality; other than that noisy RED camera destroying my hard work

[Mark LeBlanc]

Zack,

What receiver are you using and do you have an antenna array?

Mark

[Zack]

Zack,

What receiver are you using and do you have an antenna array?

Mark

I'm using a UCR411a, but no array.  I'm just being sure to be within operating distance from any RF issues.  Being up in the woods around 5-6k ft. has been giving me a lot of RF freedom .

[RPSharman]

I've been using my UM400a transmitter on my boom op for my current shoot and frankly I'm loving it.  Sounds great, no distortion issues at all during quiet or loud dialog.  I can see going cable if we were just in a single controlled location, but when on the move a lot, multiple locations throughout the day, and many different obstacles in the way, wireless has made my workflow a breeze with hardly any noticeable effect to sound quality; other than that noisy RED camera destroying my hard work

Unless it's warm outside, and the RED is on "auto" instead of "silent", you shouldn't be having noise problems.

I am using the RED build 30, and I notice it's slightly noisier than the older versions when in "silent" mode, but still only a problem when in a quiet location and close to the actors.  Still quieter than an F900 or other tape cameras, and some 35mm and 16mm cameras.

If you are hearing the camera under normal conditions, they might be in "quiet" mode or "auto".  Have them check the fan settings.  If they insist on not being in "silent" mode because of heating problems, tell them I am using silent mode in New Orleans and regularly running 8-10 minute takes.  No heating issues so far.

Robert

[Zack]

I am using the RED build 30, and I notice it's slightly noisier than the older versions when in "silent" mode, but still only a problem when in a quiet location and close to the actors.

I've noticed the same Robert, and it's mostly during these quieter "close to the actors" scenario I'm complaining about.  I'll bring up the fan settings to the AC tomorrow and see where they have things set.  I've been able to lower their defense grid with their camera over the last week to where they'll actually consider my input now lol.

Thanks

[Noah Timan]

If you are hearing the camera under normal conditions, they might be in "quiet" mode or "auto".  Have them check the fan settings.  If they insist on not being in "silent" mode because of heating problems, tell them I am using silent mode in New Orleans and regularly running 8-10 minute takes.  No heating issues so far.

Unless someone was pulling my leg, last year's RED model would bypass the "silent" mode and kick into fan mode if the camera started getting dangerously hot...period.  What I was led to believe was that this wasn't a user-adjustable function, it was a fail-safe built into the camera.  It's been over a year, thankfully, since I've had to work with the RED for more than a day or two here and there so I don't know if the current build is the same, but it may be out of the hands of the camera department (unless you or the camera dept. can pull off getting the company to wait around while the camera is powered down and cools off). 

[Guest Ken Mantlo]

Ahhhh...another thread disintegrates into a RED topic.  The sad fate of many.

Just as well though, the original topic was pretty well played out.

[Philip Perkins]

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/post-production-forum/491687-noise-reduction-s-o-rf-riding-lines.html#post5390344

This is a post on the Gearslutz audio post forum from a guy who is a very experienced dialog cutter and mixer.  He includes a short snip of dialog that he's working on, recorded w/ wireless boom.  You can hear that the TX level has been set too low and the TX compander is "reaching" for the audio, with an increase in noise around each line.  I realized right away that the line could easily be from a low budg production that was moving very fast, and that this kind of noise is often kind of hard to hear in headphones in a noisy environment. But it IS a problem for post, esp if the BG is going to stay low.  Of course, this kind of noise issue could happen with a lav too--but this editor sees it as a wireless boom issue...

Philip Perkins

[Philip Perkins]

I do agree that this is an excellent example of the "noise" that can be heard and found when using a wireless boom.  Which is unnecessary if you use a hard line to your boom operator.

I always use a hard line with the exceptions that have been noted prior to my post, when the situation requires it.  However, with the advent of Zaxcom's digital wireless systems, this wireless situation may become the norm more and more.  I do not think it should be the norm if you're using any other system.

A couple of points to make, I wonder how you can decipher from that snippet of dialogue, Phillip, that this is a low budget film with a two man crew, moving quickly and not giving the sound crew much time.  Sherlock Holmes would be jealous of such ability, as when I listened to it, I only heard one side of some dialogue with the transmission noise associated with low level settings and maximum fader settings on the recorder or mixer.

The only other comment I would make in regard to this example is that the original poster, the post editor, says that this is one side of a two sider in a car.  Now is this a moving car?  Doesn't sound like it to me, is the car stationary, probably or possibly.  Does the car drive off from the parking spot after the dialogue?  If this answer is yes, then the sound crew had to employ wireless, and their failure is in the settings on their transmitters.  If the answer is no, the car doesn't drive off, then they certainly could and should have used a cabled microphone, as I doubt the boom operator was inside the car, although always a possibility.

So there's still a little more information necessary as to suggest why this sound crew chose to use a wireless mic in the scene.  Unless it's what I think the majority of sound crews use it for, convenience, which is the most ridiculous argument.

Are shows really moving so much faster than ever before that we can't have the time to coil up a cable?  I think this is merely a decline in the concern for quality of sound crews working today, sorry my opinion.

Fine example though of how your sound is heard in post when using a wireless boom.

You can now return to complaining about the sound of the Red camera.

RVD

Hey Hey, calm down.  The OP said it was wireless boom, I know him to be a straight shooter, so it could be that he had sound reports that told him that.  And any soundie listening to that dialog track will immediately start to analyze, like Sherlock, what's going on.  I think my estimation is very possible, in that a WHOLE lot of the users of wireless boom who have posted above have said that they did so because they had to move fast.  I was being sympathetic to whoever mixed this--as opposed to assuming they were lazy (ie doing it for convenience, oh, ouch).  We all know that in a perfect world these guys COULD have used a hard line, but they chose not to.  My point is that tracks like these can harden attitudes in post about using wireless boom, which can be a very valuable tool, so one needs to be as careful as possible to avoid problems like this file has.

I wasn't complaining about the sound of the RED here, so what are you talking about?

Philip Perkins

[Philip Perkins]

I'm calm now and I was calm when I wrote the post, I'm sorry if you feel I'm outspoken about the use of the wireless boom.  I'm not the one that said "lazy," I said convenience, if you want to read into that comment that I'm implying they're lazy that's on you not me.

I'm sorry if you didn't find the humor in my comment regarding being able to decipher the use of the wireless boom, I read the OP's post on the other site and I would make the same comment to him.  Based on the examples I gave, I find it unusual that it would be a wireless boom in a scene that's called a typical car two sider, although as I stated not entirely impossible or unique.

I do stand by my comments that I feel the use of wireless booms is a lack of concern of quality, unless using the Zaxcom units, and more one of convenience.  I'm sorry this comment offends you and the others, it's merely my opinion and you have the right to hate me for it.

I apologize for the comment about returning to the discussion of the noise of the Red Camera, I should not have written "You."  I was referring to the fact that the discussion of the wireless vs. hardline had degenerated to a discussion of the noise level of the Red Camera.  Please if you can accept my apology, and I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings with my post.

Sincerely, and calmly

RVD

No hurt feelings, just mystified a little.  And the deal w/ my concern re the OP is more about perception and trying to avoid a situation where an editor tells a producer that tracks he thinks are wireless boom are causing him problems (ie costing them money) and so the producer should tell the sound dept no wireless boom from now on (Zax or no).  Wireless boom is a great tool and editors have a lot of power anymore.

Philip Perkins