How to fix the bottom feeding frenzy?

[Mark Andrews]

Okay, okay... Many of you regulars here will have seen me post occasionally in the past few months; by reading a few of those you will know I don't tend to shy away from saying what I believe could be useful, especially where it comes to key discussions such as this. This post might have something to do the fact I just came off a long night shoot and havn't slept yet, but however, I am going to open this particular can of worms, and play Devil's Advocate from my own personal perspective.

I will often work for low rates. Fact. Any money I earn on a day I would otherwise be sat at home is extra money in the bank to pay save for kit or beer. I am still new to the business (been around less than 3 years) and I am aware I still have a lot to learn and I enjoy being on set and getting to hone my skills.

A few hours ago I just finished up a run of seven days low rate work for a feature film with some well-named actors. It was a very low rate. Many of the other crew were not being paid at all for their work (such as the production assistants, or even the 2nd AC who was unpaid). Of course it would have been nice if the rates were higher, and certainly I believe everyone on set should have been paid something, but that is besides the point. Working on this was a great experience and I have learnt a huge amount from being on the set. It has provided me with some invaluable knowledge moving forward.

Now here is the bit that really gets me when I read discussions like this about the "bottom feeder problem". The rates offered were not enough to attract a top-end sound team, so why should I, as a newer member of the sound community, be expected to turn down a job that A) the senior guys/girls of our profession wouldn't accept and provides me not only with enough money to pay my rent for a month, but also provides me with valuable experience? Earlier one popular and senior jwsound member described my recent job as "paying my dues and learning", stating that I shouldn't be concerned with the pay rate so much at this stage.

Having said all that, I will make one more thing clear. The low-rate work I take is low-budget short/feature length fictional scripted narrative (drama, sometimes comedy). I do NOT accept Broadcast TV/Corporate jobs for a low rate, instead I demand a fair wage. Those are higher-end jobs, the money is there and should always be paid.

I will support any organised effort to increase low-budget (bottom-feeder) rates, but I also wish to be working regularly in order to gain the "years of experience it takes to have years of experience". I learnt so much from this project and I wish to do more like it in the near future.

I will finish up by saying I am 100% confident the producers could have got better results from a more experienced sound team, but "they get what they pay for".

~Mark.

[Richard Ragon]

Having said all that, I will make one more thing clear. The low-rate work I take is low-budget short/feature length fictional scripted narrative (drama, sometimes comedy). I do NOT accept Broadcast TV/Corporate jobs for a low rate, instead I demand a fair wage. Those are higher-end jobs, the money is there and should always be paid.

I will finish up by saying I am 100% confident the producers could have got better results from a more experienced sound team, but "they get what they pay for".

~Mark.

Mark, You do realize that today's "low-budget short/feature", is tomorrows "Broadcast TV/Corporate" producers right? Your doing a terrible disservice to them, because they will also move up, and expect since they got results with low-balling, they can expect to always low-ball.

get what they paid for?.. no they didn't, you gave them exactly what they wanted.. and cheap. Results = No Change.

I don't mean to be harsh.. just putting it out there.

-Richard

[afewmoreyears]

MARK:

I will often work for low rates. Fact. Any money I earn on a day I would otherwise be sat at home is extra money in the bank to pay save for kit or beer. I am still new to the business (been around less than 3 years) and I am aware I still have a lot to learn and I enjoy being on set and getting to hone my skills.

Mark, I hear what your saying, and it does make some sense for you... the problem is, many of us are not saving for more gear and beer, while maybe still living at Moms home (don't know if that's your case) we're trying to support families, careers, a businesses, and some leisure mixed in...

For these scenerios the concept of working for those types of rates creates false ideas of reality for those producers and creates shallow bottom rate wise.... Now, in your case on a show like that, with everyone else working for free, trying to get some experience.. it's not such a big deal in reality.... It's only the slippery slope theory that almost no matter what producers propose, someone will eventually just show up and do what they are asking... with their expensive gear in tow....

The clincher is, if well known actors are involved, many times the money is somewhere, much of the time going to them or the producers one way or another.... and you the pawn are the vehicle by which some people will be paid a decent amount... Sad, but usually true.... The bait is always the same.... When we get a real job we'll happily call you back to make a living wage.... Does this happen actually? sometimes yes.... but that sometimes is probably 5%.... Deffered pay is another 5% scam that rarely pans out.... I know, once and a while yes, but mostly no....

What is the experience worth.... to you, probably a great deal...

[Richard Thomas]

Mark, You do realize that today's "low-budget short/feature", is tomorrows "Broadcast TV/Corporate" producers right? Your doing a terrible disservice to them, because they will also move up, and expect since they got results with low-balling, they can expect to always low-ball.

get what they paid for?.. no they didn't, you gave them exactly what they wanted.. and cheap. Results = No Change.

I don't mean to be harsh.. just putting it out there.

-Richard

I'm not sure that this is always the case- I work in the same market as Mark, and again I also do low budget drama jobs to fill in between the full rate work, and have learned a lot on these by making my mistakes there, rather than on bigger projects.

I also make sure the producers know that they're not paying my full rate, invoicing for full kit rate plus whatever the reduced labour rate is (sometimes free, and I won't work for below kit rate). Sometimes some of these people already work in the broadcast/corporate world and I've also got a few jobs for full rate off the same producers (or through other crew) when doing things which aren't essentially personal projects and they've become useful contacts.

In other cases this hasn't happened and I have turned them down (at a lower rate than full rate, but more than what I've done on their shorts)

I'm also all for bringing up 'bottom feeder' rates, but I also need to be able to pay rent/kit and need to build on experience and contacts.

I've tried going along the assistant route and I never found a way in- in fact I was turned down for an assistant job this year on a funded scheme because I had *too much* experience. I'd still jump at the chance of getting an assistant job

[Toy Robot]

...

Of course it would have been nice if the rates were higher, and certainly I believe everyone on set should have been paid something, but that is besides the point. Working on this was a great experience and I have learnt a huge amount from being on the set. It has provided me with some invaluable knowledge moving forward.

...

~Mark.

You can still gain that experience while being paid properly. There is no need to accept very low budget work, and others are correct when they say that these producers move up also. However, if you continue to accept low budget work, where will you be when they move up?

...

Now here is the bit that really gets me when I read discussions like this about the "bottom feeder problem". The rates offered were not enough to attract a top-end sound team, so why should I, as a newer member of the sound community, be expected to turn down a job that A) the senior guys/girls of our profession wouldn't accept and provides me not only with enough money to pay my rent for a month, but also provides me with valuable experience? Earlier one popular and senior jwsound member described my recent job as "paying my dues and learning", stating that I shouldn't be concerned with the pay rate so much at this stage.

...

I don't know the exact amount of money you're referring to, but I know that you're looking at this in a micro vs. macro kind of way. First of all, you've been lied to when you were told key departments were operating for free. I know this to be the case, because I've had producers who are close friends of mine tell me that certain departments are always paid, no matter what. That you, "...just can't find these department heads for free..." Keep that in mind next time you negotiate.

Now back on track: If you look at any project on a gross income basis alone, without taking into account the costs you have running a business, then $1,500 gross (for example) might seem like a lot of money. But if you begin to calculate the net dollar amount you will take home and keep, including but not limited to your equipment costs, reimbursables, time spent planning and preparing for the project, running your website and accounting programs (and let's not forget the time actually spent accounting), equipment & health insurance, physical labor on location, travel etc. and then the TAXES that you must pay on your earnings, you will quickly find out that you could be making more net income working at McDonalds (or equivalent). And you'd be spending less hours doing it. Probably a lot less hours, in fact. This is not a joke.

There is no mathematical scenario in which you will survive long-term in this business accepting low-budget rates for an extended period of time if all you're gaining is rent and experience. All the rent money in the world and all the experience in the world won't cover your ass if you can't run your business. I just had a friend who didn't put this metaphorical puzzle together correctly leave the sound business and sell all of his gear after 5 years in the business (but having never managed to secure proper rates).

When I first started in sound I accepted low budget projects to get my feet on the ground, learn and earn, etc. just like everyone else. But I very quickly realized that I could not provide my clients with quality equipment and at the same time insure myself and my business from disaster (equipment & health insurance), plus tend to all of the other aspects of running a business without charging proper day rates. It is simply not possible.

Now I can do all of those things, including build my equipment inventory at a faster rate than those who do not charge proper rates. You're example is that you paid rent with your project money and learned. My example would be that I paid rent, bought $3,800 of equipment this month to upgrade my rig, ran my business and still learned while doing it all (and of course provided professional sound to my clients). I am not bragging. There are a lot of other mixers better off than me, but that is a real, factual example to illustrate a point (read: what you can do if you start charging proper rates).

The sad part is that you are probably providing professional sound to your clients, even though you're learning, and that is one very large puzzle piece you have yet to lay in place in your mind. Once you hit a baseline of professionalism, you can be paid properly and still learn as you go. No one works for 20 years and then starts asking for the rates they deserve 'once they are ready'.

I'm not trying to be mean, and I have as much to learn as anyone, but you must understand what you are missing out on... what you are causing yourself to miss out on.

You are responsible for your business model, and if I'm wrong, and somehow you can make it work then more power to you. But you hurt our rates working for such low amounts, and you are the one missing out on income you deserve.

P.S. Why do so many sound mixers feel that other sound mixers turning down low budget work is their problem? You don't owe anyone sound for free or cheap. It is NOT your job to help people who have failed to raise a proper budget for a project, or who have, and are lying to you to rip you off.

End rant.

[Max Futterman]

+1 to Alex's post. You might lose a few days when you raise your rates, but if you charge $600 versus $300, you could lose 50 percent of your business and the end result would be the same, only you'll have more time to build that deck, chill with your band, and work on that novel. It's more likely that you'd lose much less of your business when you start doing that, so ultimately you'll earn more and work less. I call that a win.

[sounddguy]

Here's a question. For at least some of you, you got your start by being taken under wing by someone else all ready working in the industry. How many of those working the "real paying" jobs currently have someone that they are mentoring?

How many pros that are not in the major markets are mentoring someone?

The point is, you have to have some experience to justify decent rates. How and where do you get that experience?

45 years ago I hung out with several experienced engineers working audio and combined with a lot of self study became

successful in the recording studio business recording "voice". There were no schools then.

Today there are schools but as had been pointed out, you don't get the hands on experience you need in class. You get that by working, either under a pro, or with low/no pay jobs until you can justify a higher pay rate based on experience.

You have to start somewhere.

If you are not in one of the major markets, you will probably never get to what the "top pros" consider adequate, but you can climb to decent living figures for your market (where cost are also not as high.)

[Mark Andrews]

I spent about two hours writing a long reply to everything posted so far, then lost it when my internet connection dropped as I was trying to post it . So short and quick this time.

@Borg357:- Richard Thomas already addressed most of your post, I do my best to educate clients about the rates expected in the industry and the services they get for those rates. As far as my "getting what they paid for" argument, if as in this case they don't pay for a boom op, the audio suffers. I can't mix four radios and boom at the same time!

@afewmoreyears: You are correct, 90% of the budget was going to the cast and/or producers, leaving nothing to the crew. Even the camera team was shorthanded, they had no operator for B-Cam so the focus puller was operating it instead, leaving the DoP to self-operate A-Cam with no focus puller. A few times the director had to step in and operate one of the cameras.

When I first started in sound I accepted low budget projects to get my feet on the ground, learn and earn, etc. just like everyone else. But I very quickly realized that I could not provide my clients with quality equipment and at the same time insure myself and my business from disaster (equipment & health insurance), plus tend to all of the other aspects of running a business without charging proper day rates. It is simply not possible. Now I can do all of those things, including build my equipment inventory at a faster rate than those who do not charge proper rates. You're example is that you paid rent with your project money and learned. My example would be that I paid rent, bought $3,800 of equipment this month to upgrade my rig, ran my business and still learned while doing it all (and of course provided professional sound to my clients). I am not bragging. There are a lot of other mixers better off than me, but that is a real, factual example to illustrate a point (read: what you can do if you start charging proper rates). The sad part is that you are probably providing professional sound to your clients, even though you're learning, and that is one very large puzzle piece you have yet to lay in place in your mind. Once you hit a baseline of professionalism, you can be paid properly and still learn as you go. No one works for 20 years and then starts asking for the rates they deserve 'once they are ready'. I'm not trying to be mean, and I have as much to learn as anyone, but you must understand what you are missing out on... what you are causing yourself to miss out on. You are responsible for your business model, and if I'm wrong, and somehow you can make it work then more power to you. But you hurt our rates working for such low amounts, and you are the one missing out on income you deserve.

Firstly: "You can still gain that experience while being paid properly." Would you take someone with zero experience onto a film set as an assistant in a fully-paid role? I am willing to bet the answer is "no", in which case your statement is false. The threads on this very forum that have described/debated the roles of sound utility/sound assistant very clearly state they must be capable of doing just about everything from setting up kit, lav mic'ing, to stepping in for the boom op or even the mixer should it be needed. And even then, you guys are struggling to get productions to hire sound assistants on productions. As there are few assistant roles anymore, and no "trainee" roles at all the industry, it is very hard to get them. The schemes run by the The Film Council/Skillset won't take us on. So please do elaborate on how myself and others like me can get that experience whilst being paid good rates in the current market environment.

Now onto the main point, Alex, you yourself admitted in your post : "When I first started in sound I accepted low budget projects to get my feet on the ground, learn and earn, etc. just like everyone else." There you go. That is EXACTLY what I am doing now. And yes, I do my very best to provide good quality sound for my clients. And yes, I make it clear that I am in a position of working my way up and that future work will have a higher charge attached to it. I want to increase my rates, and I am doing so in proportion to the experience I've gained, kit I have available and the rate at which I get more regular higher-funded work. These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

If you seriously want to find a solution to the "problem", then instead of criticising and chastising people like myself, talk to us, understand the markets we work in and the limitations we face. Then and only then can we discuss what might be valid options. Simply saying just "raise your rates" doesn't work. I know if I refused to consider any rate below BECTU minimum's from tomorrow I would probably never get another job in this industry. I don't currently have the experience, the knowledge or the reputation to support that. However, in another 2-3 years time, I should have what is required to stick to those kind of rates.

~Mark.

[Toy Robot]

Firstly: "You can still gain that experience while being paid properly." Would you take someone with zero experience onto a film set as an assistant in a fully-paid role?

This is not what I meant. You HAVE experience. What in the world do you think you've been doing for the past 2-3 years? NO ONE is going to hold your hand through this dude. You have to decide when you raise your rates, and sooner rather than later is probably better for you and our community.

What are you waiting for? What is that one specific piece of knowledge that changes your skill level and makes you 'worth' it? If you can't put your finger on it, and you already know the bulk of your job and already own a moderately professional sound kit, then I'm willing to bet it's time to raise your rates.

And yes, I make it clear that I am in a position of working my way up and that future work will have a higher charge attached to it. I want to increase my rates, and I am doing so in proportion to the experience I've gained, kit I have available and the rate at which I get more regular higher-funded work. These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

The part most people miss is that you just have to increase them. The 'want to increase my rates' is only half of it. The other half is actually doing it. Max is right. You will lose some clients, but you don't want those clients anyway. This is exactly what I did. I raised my rates and lost roughly half of my clients, but because I was charging DOUBLE what I was when I started, I began working a lot less and being paid a lot more. Then clients passed my name around a higher level circle, and now I work for a proper rate often and things are getting better by the day.

Please don't think you're a 'bad guy' or anything like that. These threads from me at least are NOT personal. This is just business, and there are many older and more experienced mixers out there who have their own point of view. But from my seat in the world, I see that far too many young sound mixers don't value themselves properly.

Simply saying just "raise your rates" doesn't work. I know if I refused to consider any rate below BECTU minimum's from tomorrow I would probably never get another job in this industry.

Yes it does. It's scary to do, but it works. You say you 'know' if you refused... and then say you 'probably' would never get another job. You would get jobs at higher rates, and you'd have to rent some equipment you don't own to do them, and you'd lose some existing clients and all that. But that's part of the growing process (which I am still definitively in BTW). The fact is, only you can decide when it's right to raise your rates and I don't think I'm going to get anywhere if you don't understand these points, but I'm really trying to help you by saying that raising your rates should be sooner rather than later.

Believe in your talent. Believe in your worth. Raise your rates. Work less, get paid more.

And again, this is not personal and I'm not upset in the slightest. I'm making my day rate after learning this same information. I'm now trying to help you make your day rate, just the same way people helped me understand I needed to do the same!

[studiomprd]

" I don't understand why it isn't enough to have a pledge among production soundies that cuts lowballing producers out of accessing the truly talented sound mixers. "

This seems to be a more civilized continuation of a discussion that got closed off the other day...

or at least part of that discussion...

once again the same old problem rears its head: not even considering the current weaknesses of the many various guilds many of us are already in, and professional organizations, just joining one, and taking the pledge (drinking the Kool-Aide??) doesn't mean that paying members more = excellent production sound...just as it doesn't really mean that paying non-members less = poor sound

[Alexander Burstein]

I make it clear that I am in a position of working my way up and that future work will have a higher charge attached to it. I want to increase my rates, and I am doing so in proportion to the experience I've gained, kit I have available and the rate at which I get more regular higher-funded work. These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

If you seriously want to find a solution to the "problem", then instead of criticising and chastising people like myself, talk to us, understand the markets we work in and the limitations we face. Then and only then can we discuss what might be valid options. Simply saying just "raise your rates" doesn't work. I know if I refused to consider any rate below BECTU minimum's from tomorrow I would probably never get another job in this industry. I don't currently have the experience, the knowledge or the reputation to support that. However, in another 2-3 years time, I should have what is required to stick to those kind of rates.

I saw this thread as more of a tool to educate and bring awareness to a problem. The name of the thread is a little harsh and for that I apologize. I for one am not angry but very enthusiastic about the idea of convincing producers to allot more of a sound budget for production work. As long as there is a discussion about such a hot topic there's going to be criticism, but chastising might be a strong word. As long as you're aware of the situation and continue to handle your business with integrity then slowly you will increase your rates. But as said by many here, it will take some hard stances and lost work for you to make a stronger leap. I didn't work a day last week and am working 1 day this week so far. I'm still transitioning from just recently learning this aspect of the business. You may not have the means to take less work at the moment so the method will change from person to person. But from what I've been told repeatedly here, it's all a process.

I don't think the purpose is to make people feel bad. The purpose is to try and find a solution to this problem. And the first step is admitting that there is a problem. =)

[studiomprd]

" I should have what is required to stick to those kind of rates. "

...have what is required to deserve, get, and stick to those kind of rates.

yep...

[atheisticmystic]

These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

~Mark.

A great big dollop of this!

[afewmoreyears]

These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

~Mark.

I think there is some maybe a little....truth to this,

BUT... Back when we were using Nagra IIIs and 4.2s, there were a fraction of the humans involved in the process... NATIONWIDE and WORLDWIDE... and there was a real mentor process back then... and no internet... you were taken under the wing by someone you begged, worked your way up under that wing, and normally released to a world with pricing in the ballpark of normality... and then after that you faked it, not letting on to the people hiring you that you were a BIT green...

Now, the whole thing is a bit like PIG BOMB (anyone see that?) only on steroids.... with no end in sight or restrictions on pricing or really on anything... It's become a bit of a SOUND BOMB...LOL...

I think it was inevitable..... I mean sound people are so cool, what are people supposed to do... become Greenspeople... LOL... Just kidding...

[Jeff Wexler]

These kind of threads make me feel like a bad guy, the enemy of experienced sound mixers and how I am hurting your businesses, when in reality I am simply doing what you did in the past to get to where you are now.

~Mark.

I think there is some maybe a little....truth to this,

BUT... Back when we were using Nagra IIIs and 4.2s, there were a fraction of the humans involved in the process... NATIONWIDE and WORLDWIDE... and there was a real mentor process back then... and no internet... you were taken under the wing by someone you begged, worked your way up under that wing, and normally released to a world with pricing in the ballpark of normality... and then after that you faked it, not letting on to the people hiring you that you were a BIT green...

afewmoreyears makes a really good point here --- not only are the jobs different today, the whole PROCESS of "starting out" in the business has changed. When most of us, the old guy crowd here, started out, there were NO options as far as the equipment package --- either you had a Nagra and knew how to operate it or not. Now, there are countless devices available that all have a RECORD button --- if you are smart enough to locate that you will be able to deliver something to your employer. Also, in old days (Medieval times), there was a lot less work, a lot less jobs: feature films (and I do mean FILMS), commercials, documentaries, industrials, TV shows and news work. No webisodes, no Reality TV, no YouTube, etc. There was also a much sharper division between non-union work and union work (with generally a lot fewer jobs that could ever pay below union scale rates and this was on ONE contract with one pay scale and one set of working conditions). You wouldn't get on a union job as a sound mixer until you had proven yourself to a certain level of competency which usually meant doing quite a few jobs (union or non-union) in the position of a boom operator, utility or recordist.

[ccsnd]

I just spent 3 days negotiating a (barely) reasonable deal for a several week run with 5 wires, comteks, timecode. Today production calls me and tells me they found someone willing to do the job for less and they are going to go with him.

"How much" I ask

5,000. for THREE WEEKS WITH ALL THAT GEAR.

[Marc Wielage]

There was a conversation here years ago about a midwestern "family film" producer who wanted to pay a sound guy $5000 for 3 weeks work. This is insane, especially adding in 5 wireless, comteks, recorder, mixer, and all that stuff as a rental. You can't even rent the gear alone for $5000 for 3 weeks. $250 a day won't hack it. One student and a boom to camera, sure, but not a pro mixer with real gear and experience.

I would add to the previous comments that an effort needs to be made to educate producers as to what things cost in the real world. I have a form letter I send out to people that basically says, "I can't work for a rate this low, but here's a list of film schools in the area you can contact, and maybe you can find a student who can borrow gear. Please consider me for your next project if your budget warrants an experienced mixer with a complete sound package."

As I have said before, this is a problem that ripples throughout the business, not just in sound. I recently heard from a VFX friend of mine who tells me he's getting terribly beat-up on rates, and he's just a one-man band, doing onesy-twosy pickup shots at home. Even one guy still has to pay rent, electricity, and eat. You can't do that on the peanuts these lowball guys are offering.

[afewmoreyears]

I just spent 3 days negotiating a (barely) reasonable deal for a several week run with 5 wires, comteks, timecode. Today production calls me and tells me they found someone willing to do the job for less and they are going to go with him.

"How much" I ask

5,000. for THREE WEEKS WITH ALL THAT GEAR.

An ass in the seat, that's all they want... an ass in the seat... or Standing !!!... but an ass never the less ....

Sorry to hear that... and the "beat goes on" as Cher used to say...

[atheisticmystic]

Hey Chris,

Is that the same gig advertised on CL for 5K for three weeks, end of Sep thru beg. of Oct?

[ccsnd]

no, although those people did call me. The one you are talking about wanted 7 wireless. also they told me I had to be able to record dialog in a convertible without requiring adr.

They had no chance of budging on their budget. They also had no chance of getting anybody good.

[atheisticmystic]

Dialogue in a convertible, and at the beach, no looping, and no budget.

Sweet.

[Olle Sjostrom]

Why not pre record ADR prior to shooting and let them mime over the lines?

[atheisticmystic]

By jingo yes!

I think you're onto something Olle...

[Mark Andrews]

This is not what I meant. You HAVE experience. What in the world do you think you've been doing for the past 2-3 years? NO ONE is going to hold your hand through this dude. You have to decide when you raise your rates, and sooner rather than later is probably better for you and our community.

What are you waiting for? What is that one specific piece of knowledge that changes your skill level and makes you 'worth' it? If you can't put your finger on it, and you already know the bulk of your job and already own a moderately professional sound kit, then I'm willing to bet it's time to raise your rates.

The part most people miss is that you just have to increase them. The 'want to increase my rates' is only half of it. The other half is actually doing it. Max is right. You will lose some clients, but you don't want those clients anyway. This is exactly what I did. I raised my rates and lost roughly half of my clients, but because I was charging DOUBLE what I was when I started, I began working a lot less and being paid a lot more. Then clients passed my name around a higher level circle, and now I work for a proper rate often and things are getting better by the day.

Please don't think you're a 'bad guy' or anything like that. These threads from me at least are NOT personal. This is just business, and there are many older and more experienced mixers out there who have their own point of view. But from my seat in the world, I see that far too many young sound mixers don't value themselves properly.

Yes it does. It's scary to do, but it works. You say you 'know' if you refused... and then say you 'probably' would never get another job. You would get jobs at higher rates, and you'd have to rent some equipment you don't own to do them, and you'd lose some existing clients and all that. But that's part of the growing process (which I am still definitively in BTW). The fact is, only you can decide when it's right to raise your rates and I don't think I'm going to get anywhere if you don't understand these points, but I'm really trying to help you by saying that raising your rates should be sooner rather than later.

Believe in your talent. Believe in your worth. Raise your rates. Work less, get paid more.

And again, this is not personal and I'm not upset in the slightest. I'm making my day rate after learning this same information. I'm now trying to help you make your day rate, just the same way people helped me understand I needed to do the same!

Alex, with all due respect, you do not work in the same city as I do. You cannot possibly understand the complexities of local markets outside where you are based (your website says new york state). I do know my market. I understand the requirements of my clients and unfortunately in the majority of cases their requirement is not for the best quality audio money can buy. It is for good quality audio that fits within the budgets they are able to raise. If a producer has a £5,000 budget for a short film (which is a top end low budget amount in my market), and it requires a 4 day shoot, they simply cannot afford to spend £2,000 on a location sound team. They could theoretically afford and can usually be pushed to £600-800. That is 1/6th to 1/8th of the total budget of the film. Locations, camera/lighting/grip equipment, cast wages, other crew wages, catering, and so much else has to come out of the rest. These productions do not operate on a lot of money, and as such they cannot pay the BECTU minimum rates for any crew. So they pay some money where they absolutely have to, sound is usually one of those areas, but they still cannot afford top rates. For me they represent an opportunity, to earn enough money to live by in the short term and practise the skills that will benefit my career/business in the long term by enabling me to produce better audio for the high rate jobs that do come my way. The more of those jobs I get and the better I do with them, the more my name gets passed around the higher circles and the less I will need to do the lower rate jobs.

When my clients get projects that have more money, generally they keep me on and pay me the extra. I respect them and their predicaments on the budgetary side of things, and in return they respect my position and almost always offer what they can. It's a mutually beneficial relationship. And it genuinely offers a good prospect of future success. Things are undoubtedly very different in other markets; where you work the majority of producers may look for cheap audio on commercial release projects and push to get low-ballers in, if you say no they just replace you with the next low-baller. Here in London it is not like that. It's a big pond but the industry is small enough that producers can't get away with it. There are exceptions of course, and i've bumped into a few of the exceptions on my travels, but that is generally the way it works.

Anyway.. back onto the topic at hand. I personally believe that there is no universal answer to raising low end rates, and any effort must be made on a local level to deal with it according to the demands of each individual market. The key does lie in education, of both producers and new sound guys. What hasn't helped over here is the whole "guerilla filmmaker movement" from the last few years that tells people they can shoot a film for nothing and encourages them to go out and try to exploit others in order to achieve that.

~Mark.

[studiomprd]

" they found someone willing to do the job for less and they are going to go with him. "

and you were surprised because ... ??

" They also had no chance of getting anybody good. "

not true...sorry.