snd.waves Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 Hi folks, Just wanted to write of my experience with using a Scarlet yesterday. I know there is a lot written about the on camera audio situation with the Scarlet, but I had a that had me stumped, and I just want to see if the camera I was using had some major issue with its build or pre-amps. I have shot with most cameras, and many times on the Epic without any issue, but yesterday I just could not get clean audio into this scarlet. Mind you, it was an early model with serial # 79, and hadn't ever had a firmware upgrade. This was helping out an old friend. It was a sit down interview, and he owned the camera. So I ran tone into the camera out of my 552, via my loom at mic level through two unbalanced input cables. The smallest level would appear on the meters, only just audible with headphone gain at full steam. I backed of all levels and sent line level out, and presto, the meters lined up, although one was about 10db lower than the other. I took a listen, and it was the most distorted sound i think i've ever heard, period. I flipped it to -10 tape level out, and the meters dropped out completely, leaving me with the same situation as before, audio barely registering on the meters and no sound unless everything cranked to the max. This was the issue, either no audio at all, or super hot, total distortion, even with a very small difference in input signal. After trying everything in the menu, with different cables, pads, etc. I could only say that the camera needed a service. I guess because I hadn't used the Scarlet specifically, it was hard to assume just that. My friend vaguely said that there had been issues before, but I felt he didn't want to expand on it much, maybe he felt it reflected badly on him. Anyway, does this ring any bells for anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 You don't ever want to put your main audio on any RED camera. It's a scratch track recorder at best. Use an outboard recorder for best audio. You friend is being very foolish in not getting the problem fixed. Don't you worry about it, you did your best with a piece of broken gear. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted February 15, 2013 Report Share Posted February 15, 2013 You don't ever want to put your main audio on any RED camera. It's a scratch track recorder at best. +1 I don't trust the RED for audio at all. If I am in a locked down controlled situation I will feed it hardwired from my mixer but I don't listen to it as the return is dreadful. If we are moving around alot it gets a Comtek for scratch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 Bear in mind that the Red Epic and Red Scarlet have the exact same audio input circuitry, and it's mic level only. For that reason, I always pad down the level about -30dB just to avoid overloading it right at the input. Once there, I send them -20dBfs tone and set it accordingly. If it's a mono feed, I'll split it and drop channel 2 about 10 more dB if possible. I agree with Eric and Whitney not to trust the camera's sound for anything except a scratch track. I have had producers go behind my back and not use the supplied WAV files and instead use the camera hop feed -- and when they saw my dismayed expression, they shrugged and said, "hey, it sounded great and we're hiring you again!" Hard to argue with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 In addition the 1/8" TRS connection can be problematic with certain adapter cables, specially those designed for 'stereo' consumer cameras and portable recorders. which could short out or 'cancel' out the balanced input. I normally send a reference audio track via a Comtek with a custom made unbalanced padded cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 In addition the 1/8" TRS connection can be problematic with certain adapter cables, specially those designed for 'stereo' consumer cameras and portable recorders. which could short out or 'cancel' out the balanced input I had Eric Toline make me a custom snake tail for the epic and it is way easier then using adapter cables though I have those too in case I need to feed two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aron Siegel Posted February 16, 2013 Report Share Posted February 16, 2013 When the RED ONE was first introduced, I had TREW Audio build me some custom breakaway camera pigtails for my REMOTE AUDIO snakes. These worked ok for the first few firmware revs. I even became very schooled in the art of avoiding the ground loop (all power must come from the same source--be they monitors, cart power, or camera power). Once RED decided to retrofit new audio boards into their cameras, and on a regular basis i'd never be certain as to what firmware ver or hardware ver I was dealing with, and the returns were never consistent, i stopped sending audio to the camera. a lockit box on the camera and a nice digital recorder resolves all issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 17, 2013 Report Share Posted February 17, 2013 I still send a scratch track feed to the camera only out of pity for the editor (or assistant editor) syncing everything up, because I know the pain of having to sync up hours and hours of material with no reference at all. I do this just on the belt-and-suspenders approach, just in case the timecode fails -- on camera's end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snd.waves Posted February 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 I always send a scratch track, but never call it master audio, that's crazy talk! I guess this camera I used had a major issue and yes, my friend should have been on top of it, and got it fixed, especially as there'd been issues before. Thank you all for the feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisnewton Posted February 18, 2013 Report Share Posted February 18, 2013 I was visiting post recently who were working on a show I did where I sent guide track to an Epic and sometimes a Scarlet. the picture editor had used the guide track to cut the show. I was very surprised at how good it sounded. (don't tell anybody!) Scary really, as some producers might actually have used the guide track. i sent a rough mono mix to camera via G3 and recorded isos to my 744T. having said all this, i do not trust the Red at all for sound recording. too many chances for disaster. i speak from experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 20, 2013 Report Share Posted February 20, 2013 " some producers might actually have used the guide track. i sent " <gasp> please say it isn't so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snd.waves Posted February 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Worked on the TVCs for one of the major hardware stores here in Aus. The prod company specifically requested the audio to be recorded direct to the red, as they'd use that as the master. Couldn't convince them otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Whoops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 21, 2013 Report Share Posted February 21, 2013 Worked on the TVCs for one of the major hardware stores here in Aus. The prod company specifically requested the audio to be recorded direct to the red, as they'd use that as the master. Couldn't convince them otherwise. Tell them they can also get usable pictures using VHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aron Siegel Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 I still send a scratch track feed to the camera only out of pity for the editor (or assistant editor) syncing everything up, because I know the pain of having to sync up hours and hours of material with no reference at all. I do this just on the belt-and-suspenders approach, just in case the timecode fails -- on camera's end. I used to send a scratch track thru an IFB to camera. I stopped that as well when post was complaining about the quality and rf hits on the scratch track. they were not synching to the mix track on the dvd-rams, and they were editing with the scratch track. never send them something that they shouldn't be using. it always backfires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 22, 2013 Report Share Posted February 22, 2013 " they were not synching to the mix track on the dvd-rams, and they were editing with the scratch track. " and this surprised you because... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al mcguire Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 "never send them something that they shouldn't be using. it always backfires." and ends up costing you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted February 23, 2013 Report Share Posted February 23, 2013 I used to send a scratch track thru an IFB to camera. I stopped that as well when post was complaining about the quality and rf hits on the scratch track. they were not synching to the mix track on the dvd-rams, and they were editing with the scratch track. Well, I cheat and send them the scratch track from a 250mw transmitter from my bag or cart, and (so far) have never had any hits. I still tell them to use the separate WAV tracks, and generally they do so -- especially when the editor needs the isos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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