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Perception of Schoeps SuperCMIT 2U and recording channels


RKynaston
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Hi guys,

I'm a digital photographer (well cameraman!) and having spent a number of years focusing on imagery, leaving audio to somebody else, im now starting to move more into one-man operation and increasing my base knowledge of audio.  I've spent a bit of time reading this forum over the past few weeks, but have a couple of queries.

 

The company that I work for tends to supply a lot of HD footage to the transport industry, so the work can range from ENG style interviews to being stood in the middle of a hillside filming a plane or train coming towards me.  Both have quite distinct sounds that I need to ensure are picked up both from a distance and close-up.

 

I'm thinking of investing in a Schoeps SuperCMIT 2U or CMIT5u for the outside audio, feeding into a SoundDevices 788T-SSD recorder (with an XLR out to the camera for a base sync track).  But want to ensure that I'm also capturing the surrounding audio as well, with the ability to mix (or leave out various channels) in post later.  There is the need to take the immediate surround sound out at times, as I can occasionally be stood with other photographers and their camera shutters going off sounds more like a machine gun on the audio, so that obviously needs to be reduced as much as possible!

 

For interviews, im thinking more of a Sennheiser MKE418, with something like a Sanken WMS-5 for the outdoor surround sound.   My line of thinking is that outdoor would have a Schoeps and WMS-5 using seven channels on the 788T, while interviews would just have the MKE418.  

 

My question is do you guys think that is over the top, or the wrong set up?  Also, for those who have used the SuperCMIT 2U/CMIT 5u I understand from a couple of colleagues that both the base setting and one preset at a time can be recorded simultaneously, so i presume that takes up two channels?  I'm guessing the WMS-5 is the same but using 5 channels?  Would something like the Schoeps Double M/S CMIT be a better idea than the WMS-5 AND SuperCMIT?  

 

Also can any of you guys suggest the best set up of windscreen for the shotgun mic that can minimise the noise of a gale on a hillside! 

 

I'd value your views? I haven't had chance to talk to any other sound guys that I know yet, so would value any opinions.  I've no problem making the investment, but want to make sure I do it right, and with kit that is going to deliver long-term, potentially in a variety of weather conditions!

 

Cheers
Richard

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Hi Chris,

Thanks for that.  Strangely it didn't show up in a search for Super CMIT 2u.  Interesting results, as I think that potentially answers the distance question.   Id be interested to know more about the 'introduction of artifacts' that showed up when using Preset 2?

 

This may be a silly question, but am I correct in thinking the CMIT records one channel for the CMIT sound, and one channel for the preset?

 

Cheers
Richard

 

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Hi, and welcome...

 

" I'm thinking of investing in a Schoeps SuperCMIT 2U or CMIT5u for the outside audio, feeding into a SoundDevices 788T-SSD recorder (with an XLR out to the camera for a base sync track). "

ah, another wanna-bee golfer thinks all that is required are the same clubs and balls that Tiger Woods uses...

 

" This may be a silly question, but am I correct in thinking the CMIT records one channel for the CMIT sound, and one channel for the preset? "

you are incorrect.

the CMIT records nothing.

 

" a search for Super CMIT 2u "

try alternatives...

maybe 'SuperCMIT'...

 

Jay Rose's excellent books at www.dplay.com

 

" Since you can record both presets at the same time "

nope

Edited by studiomprd
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Christian,

Thanks for the pointer, i'll take a look.

 

" I'm thinking of investing in a Schoeps SuperCMIT 2U or CMIT5u for the outside audio, feeding into a SoundDevices 788T-SSD recorder (with an XLR out to the camera for a base sync track). "

ah, another wanna-bee golfer thinks all that is required are the same clubs and balls that Tiger Woods uses...

 

" This may be a silly question, but am I correct in thinking the CMIT records one channel for the CMIT sound, and one channel for the preset? "

you are incorrect.

the CMIT records nothing.

 

@studiomprd:  I'm new to the forum, and am not an audio guy so i'll keep the majority of my opinions on your first comment to myself. But no, I don't believe using the same clubs and balls as Tiger Woods would make me a good golfer, neither do I think, assume or expect that using the best mic in the word would give me the best sound, and I resent the view that my question gave that impression.

 

I acknowledge that being in the glitzy world of Hollywood is very different from my world in the UK.  People may try and produce films (long or short) and believe they can be director, producer, cameraman, boom operator, focus puller, sound recordist, colourist all in one, whether they succeed or not I have no idea.  But in my world, we don't work in an arena of multi-people crews and we're not filming feature films.  But when my boss says that we are moving more and more towards an ENG run and gun style of shooting, because that is what the clients want - then sorry, but thats what the client gets.  If they want multi-people crews, then they need to be upping the budget, but as most of these are for in-house training or promotional films etc.. where they are not going public and not being broadcast, such budgets do not exist.

 

Do I think such filming should be a one man crew - no.  But my opinion doesn't count, the clients (which in some cases are major UK well known brands) opinion does.  All i'm looking to do is to deliver the best product I (as a video cameraman) can, and the nature of that means we need to manage the audio.  Should it be to blockbuster quality, yes. Will it be? no, it needs to be as good as the setup, the individual (me) and the editor can provide.

 

At the end of the day, I asked for some help and some views, making it quite clear i'd come from the video side, not the audio side of production, because having spent a fair while reading comments on this forum I acknowledged that there are a number of very knowledgable audio people who may be willing to offer help and advice on the questions.  If you want to be sarcastic then kindly direct it elsewhere, as that's not what I asked the questions for.

 

I do however, apologise for my typo.  I did mean to say "but am I correct in thinking the sound recorder to which the mic is connected, records one channel for the base sound, and one channel for which ever preset has been chosen? i.e. 2 separate (not combined) channels".  Thanks for pointing me towards Jay Rose's books, i'll take a look at those.

 

And can I thank those who have provided a meaning full contribution to my answers so far - it is appreciated. I don't expect to become an expert, but would I far rather garner the views and opinions of those people using such equipment day to day, than the views of a salesman!

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" I'm new to the forum, "

sorry, I forgot to say 'welcome'....

 

" and I resent the view that my question gave that impression. "

you are free to resent it,  but that is the impression your post gave me...

it sounded clearly to me like if only you had the right microphone, I would get great sound, " There is the need to take the immediate surround sound out at times,", and without having to have or pay an experienced sound person.

sure reads to me like you are asking us which magic bullets to buy...

 

" For interviews, im thinking more of a Sennheiser MKE418, with something like a Sanken WMS-5 for the outdoor surround sound.   My line of thinking is that outdoor would have a Schoeps and WMS-5 using seven channels on the 788T, while interviews would just have the MKE418.  "

 

and as a newcomer, you sure didn't seem to have done  much reading up to see what we have been, and are discussing...

" the best set up of windscreen for the shotgun mic that can minimise the noise of a gale on a hillside! "

Piano system is currently being discussed, led by our host!  also there are a couple of other very current threads about buying magic bullets

" then sorry, but thats what the client gets.  "

unreasonable expectations..?:

 

and, as posed in one of those other threads I mentioned,  how do you respond if I explained that I'm an audio person, but sense that jobs are tending to prefer one person, a shooter, so I want to know the best camera and lens to get the excellent images you have been capturing... Should I get the digital Hasselblad? (and which lenses?)  If I get the Canon, I could probably afford a few additional lenses, but money is  really no object, " I've no problem making the investment, but want to make sure I do it right, " as long as the kit will solve all the problems, and get the great images.  any suggestions what filters I'll need ??  I like the HD4-200MS,  but maybe I really ought to go with the h5D ?? the -40, or the -50 ??   I don't think the V series will do, but maybe I'm wrong..??

Edited by studiomprd
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Stop fecking about buying a 788 and hire a professional that knows what they are doing.

But when my boss says that we are moving more and more towards an ENG run and gun style of shooting, because that is what the clients want - then sorry, but thats what the client gets.

ENG shoots consist of 3 people Director, Camera man and sound person so you aren't doing ENG style Regards Chris Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2
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@Studiomprd: Apology accepted. I'm aware this is an equipment forum, and don't want to take it off focus, but given the scenario you lay out, I'd like to think that the person concerned has come asking for help and I'd hope that I'd try and point him in the right direction, pointing out that the type of filming, end result, lighting etc all play apart in things, no doubt I'd add that I wouldnt expect to get feature film results without the cameraman with feature film experience, but I wouldn't be dismissive.

It happens in all industries where the right way isn't done. I presume you cook food at home? Have you trained as a chef? ( that was a joke, not having a go!) just proving that it may not be best but its what happens.

Anyway back to the equipment, there isn't a magic bullet in any world. But I've always been brought up with the basis that knowledge is gained over the years and passed on. That's what I'm looking for - knowledgable people to point me in the right direction.

Money isn't no object, I've been saving carefully, and when I do spend it if like it to be after careful consideration and having gained as much insight as I can. If somebody came back and said don't go for the ABC123 mic because to get the best results you need a sound guy monitoring and adjusting, go for an XYZ987 instead. Sound isn't quiet as good, but will be better than the other for a one man band, then I'd be greatful and take that decision on board.

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@Studiomprd: Apology accepted. I'm aware this is an equipment forum, and don't want to take it off focus...

 

This is a forum about the craft of capturing sound on location. The equipment is only part of it. Heck, I'm not even sure if the equipment is half of it. 

 

I think the Super-CMIT is a very, very specialized microphone that is not suited for a wide range of projects, particularly low-budget or of modest expectations. To my ear, almost anything the Super-CMIT you can do, you can dial in with post-production tools like iZotope. Having said that, in expert hands, the Super-CMIT can be a miracle-worker (as Simon Hayes and his UK crew did using a combination of lavs and the Super-CMIT on Les Miserables). 

 

If you're just starting off, I think a $5000 microphone would be way overkill. Spending that $5000 on a half-dozen microphones (a couple of lavs, a couple of shotguns, a couple of hypercardioids) would be a far wiser move. I also think recording stereo on location is totally not required, especially for interviews in difficult places. To me, recording stereo is for sound designers and effects people, not for grabbing an interview on the run. I think M/S would be wasted in your specific intended use... but that's strictly my opinion.

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" ENG shoots consist of 3 people "

sadly, not so much anymore...

 

" Apology accepted. "

I'm so glad you feel welcome, and we are friends again...

I  respect what you do, and the experience you have gained with years of professional work.

Since it may be dark when I take some pictures...so what flash will work best ?  I'll appreciate your advice since you have experience.

do you think I'll need a tripod ?? 

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Has anyone noticed that we seem to be getting a lot people coming on here these days  who are not sound professionals asking us what mic would be best to used?, I have this equipment will it work in such and such a situation?, or can you suggest the one  magic bullet that will solve all my sound problems?. 

 

I'm all for advising folks if they have needs, but the reality is if you want the job done properly you should hire the correct person for the job. If my house needed a new electrical fuse box, I'm not about to ask an electrician what type of wire is the best and then go an try to and install it myself when I know nothing about electrical work and not qualified to do the work. 

 

To the OP I think the equipment you are looking at buying is overkill if you are doing a one man band camera lighting and sound- Keep it simple and basic. A 302  with a couple of lavs a basic stereo recorder and Sennhieser 416 would be more than adequate.  Any gigs that require a 788T with all the different types of mics really requires a skilled operator. Any producer that expects you to be doing pro sound to that kind of level, camera and lighting is asking way to much of you.

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" Has anyone noticed that we seem to be getting a lot people coming on here these days  who are not sound professionals asking us what mic would be best to used?, "

Absolutely!

and a couple of common threads, like Super CMIT's, and surround ...

Trolls ??

perhaps...

perhaps just coincidence

my answers are the same either way!

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Go see Roger Patel at Everything Audio at Elstree Studio.

 

He can go over all the gear with you and demo it live so you can not only see for yourself but hear for yourself. He will get you sorted.

 

Simon Bishop is also a good guy to visit a pub with. He is on this group and can give you perspective as he owns a Super CMIT as well as all of the other gear.

 

Glenn Sanders

President Zaxcom Inc.

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about the artifacts: read the threads here about Les Misérables, apparently they went very well with preset 2 on the SuperCMIT. I suppose you'll have to try it out. Since you can record both presets at the same time there's not much to lose (except for $$$).

I have owned the Super CMIT's for 2 years and done multiple films on them.

 

I would not recommend ever using the preset 2 on them and i have only used it once in a truly extreme situation.

I did not use preset 2 on Les Miserables.

Preset 2 makes back ground noise sound weird and un-natural and makes dialogue sound like its recorded on a 1960's T power gun mic.

 

I think what the OP is talking about is being able to record one of the processed signals (of which i use 'preset 1' which is subtle) and

the unprocessed signal (which is basically the same as a standard CMIT gun mic).

 

The Super CMIT is an advanced piece of kit which is best used in the hands of an extremely skilled Boom Operator.

It is not the best tool for a Sound Mixer who works on his own,on a short pole having to record 'adlibby' dialogue from multiple talent on documentary or reality type shows.

The person who is 'off mic' will sound like they were 50 feet from the mic.

It would be a nice bit of kit to have for that shot of one person talking on the corner of a busy street when you cannot hold traffic,or the presenter who wants to do a piece to camera infront of a waterfall but that is about it.

 

I use two of them with 2 boom operators on scripted movie dialogue and each boom op is assigned different actors to make sure they are 100% on-mic.

 

In a quiet background enviroment on an interior i would always prefer to use a Schoeps MK41 Hyper cardioid.

The Super CMIT is only for challenging enviroments with background noise. 

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I am continually shocked and appalled by how pedantic and condescending people can be on this forum. Not everyone in this thread, obviously...

 

Gear aside (yes, you were right to assume that this section of JWSound is dedicated to equipment) I'm going to recommend this dvd as a solid primer for learning fundamental sound techniques. Good luck out there. :)

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I have owned the Super CMIT's for 2 years and done multiple films on them.

 

I would not recommend ever using the preset 2 on them and i have only used it once in a truly extreme situation.

I did not use preset 2 on Les Miserables.

Preset 2 makes back ground noise sound weird and un-natural and makes dialogue sound like its recorded on a 1960's T power gun mic.

 

I think what the OP is talking about is being able to record one of the processed signals (of which i use 'preset 1' which is subtle) and

the unprocessed signal (which is basically the same as a standard CMIT gun mic).

 

The Super CMIT is an advanced piece of kit which is best used in the hands of an extremely skilled Boom Operator.

It is not the best tool for a Sound Mixer who works on his own,on a short pole having to record 'adlibby' dialogue from multiple talent on documentary or reality type shows.

The person who is 'off mic' will sound like they were 50 feet from the mic.

It would be a nice bit of kit to have for that shot of one person talking on the corner of a busy street when you cannot hold traffic,or the presenter who wants to do a piece to camera infront of a waterfall but that is about it.

 

I use two of them with 2 boom operators on scripted movie dialogue and each boom op is assigned different actors to make sure they are 100% on-mic.

 

In a quiet background enviroment on an interior i would always prefer to use a Schoeps MK41 Hyper cardioid.

The Super CMIT is only for challenging enviroments with background noise. 

 

I'm curious, Simon. Do you use the SuperCMIT in interiors (and I mean like real locations) as well? How well does that microphone do with acoustics in preset 1? 

 

Will you be using SuperCMITs in the movie you mentioned with the unblimped, handheld Arris in the other thread? 

(EDIT: He just responded to this question in that other thread)

 

 

Sawrab

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I am continually shocked and appalled by how pedantic and condescending people can be on this forum. Not everyone in this thread, obviously...

 

Yes. They are doing that. I guess they're fed up with the repeats of similar threads. Maybe we should just give a canned response only to the repeat threads instead of humoring and then insulting the original posters? 

 

I'm referring to a couple of threads now. 

 

 

 

Sawrab

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I'm curious, Simon. Do you use the SuperCMIT in interiors (and I mean like real locations) as well? How well does that microphone do with acoustics in preset 1? 

 

Will you be using SuperCMITs in the movie you mentioned with the unblimped, handheld Arris in the other thread? 

(EDIT: He just responded to this question in that other thread)

 

 

Sawrab

Only when i have to,and yes i am using them now to counter camera noise.

 

I would always rather use a Schoeps Hyper Cardioid on interiors if conditions are quiet though.

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