studiomprd Posted November 17, 2011 Report Share Posted November 17, 2011 " difficult position (albeit temporary) " thus be careful not to set those deals as the price list! " think a 5D means a cheap camera " Big Problem: If the really great "professional quality" camera is only around $2k, then why is measly sound equipment more expensive than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 The initial email sounds familiar to me, was this for a cooking show perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Hi Zack, It was not for a cooking show, though this client does provide a myriad of content for many networks, including cooking shows. For obvious reasons I left out any information that could be construed as damaging to the client's 'good name'... Suffice it to say, they do hire crews all over the world, and have the ability to absorb the cost of hiring Sound Mixers at decent rates, regardless of the individual show's supposed 'budget'... They routinely incorporate tactics like telling potential Sound hires that they only have "x" in their budget for whatever particular show they're doing as a means of getting (and establishing) lower rates for their crews. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 18, 2011 Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 What I have found is it doesn't matter what they are asking for or whatever they want to pay - people will be lining up for the job. I've turned down a job on a long term doc a while back because of rate - a week into production I got a desperate call from the producer looking to hire me now for my rate. I guess the person they hired didn't work out. I turned them down. Jack, this happened to me too.. Once a production does this.. It kind of sours the relationship after that. If they call me back, I'm far less likely to say yes. I start to think, "if they are NOT smart to recognize a bargain within ME the first time, than what other really bad decisions will they be making on that production??" -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2011 Hey Richard, As far as my (few) experiences with the aforementioned client have been, the actual production process is pretty painless and well-organized. The field producers and camera people they hire have been great to work with. My only criticism thus far (granted, I've only done like 3 jobs for them) is that they want the moon but don't want to pay for it... I guess that's a pretty common business tactic anywhere -- our greatest strength often resides in our ability to say no. Until I'm in a better position to simply turn them down, I have to play their game a little, and hopefully beat them at it. I've now managed to get them to raise the kit rental another $150, and I'm still saying no to the camera hops. Unless they want to go double-system (and pay me for it), I'd rather avoid using hops and having no practical way of monitoring what's going to tape. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 This is a great thread! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I found my very first feature on Craig's List. Although the "director" was a doctor and her sister, also a doctor, read a book on lighting for film and therefore performed the task of DP, they took advice from a friend and paid for a sound mixer. Nobody else was paid, or if they were, it was a small sum. I think I got about $400/day plus some for gear, if I remember. After interviewing initially, they hired someone with more experience. When he fell asleep at the camera test, they called me. Worst Job and worst movie (so I heard) ever. I have not had any other work from Craig's List, although I confess to have sought some in the lean times. Perhaps luck prevented me from being available, but typically I was never emailed back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I've had some luck with CL, however, you gotta kiss a lot of frogs. Lots.. The funny thing is with CL, is any good job that I got from it, didn't immediately show up. I'll explain. When I get asked for a gig way too low, I turn it down, but someone keeps my number and either remembers me for being a nice guy, or a knowledgeable guy, or perhaps one of the most experienced sound mixer they may have in their stack. So, a year later, after a producer has just had a string of bad experiences, and if they even make it to there 2nd or 3rd film, somehow my number comes up and I get a call that goes like this.. "Hey, you put in for a gig a while back, and I was wondering..." .. like I said.. kiss a lot of frogs. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Gee no comments! I got away with it. mike I see absolutely nothing wrong with what you said. Your last point makes me whistle while driving my car to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syncsound Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 I recently had a similar conversation with a repeat client: HIM I've tried to work with other mixers that charge less, and they can't deliver. But I can't justify your rates. ME (internal VO) You just did. We worked it out, but sheesh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I recently had a similar conversation with a repeat client: HIM I've tried to work with other mixers that charge less, and they can't deliver. But I can't justify your rates. ME (internal VO) You just did. Classic. Except, you shouldn't'a kept it internal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I recently had a similar conversation with a repeat client: HIM I've tried to work with other mixers that charge less, and they can't deliver. But I can't justify your rates. ME (internal VO) You just did. Im with JB I would have said you just did. I have had this conversation with clients on a few occasions another great line I get is "Well its only one talent or this is a easy one" which is then followed with "Can you charge us less for labor" I always reply it is easy or no big deal till the audio is screwed up or isn't there. For some clients or jobs if the sound is good enough then that is ok with them and they usually pay the good enough rate and hire Cousin Vinnie who is a 6 month vet of the film industry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I think some producers would rather take the quality hit and overall risk of bad sound so they don't have to down grade their expensive hotel and meal habits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 For some clients or jobs if the sound is good enough then that is ok with them and they usually pay the good enough rate and hire Cousin Vinnie who is a 6 month vet of the film industry. I know that guy! I generally try to tell clients like this, "actually, that IS my rate for an easy shoot. The hard shoots carry a premium." --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Van Dyke Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 First, to Mr. Taylor the OP, no disrespect intended. I didn't "pigeonhole" you into the category of "Guy Who Gives Gear Away for Free," you did that yourself when you posted your email to the Producer, in which you state that you include gear for free. Also to Mr. Taylor, shame on you for using the tragic state of the economy for your "excuse" to have to give gear away for free. Did you read your post? You claim that you are struggling to maintain your two mortgages, did it ever occur to you that possibly the majority of members here rent and only dream of owning a home, let alone two? I'm sure that everyone here, including myself, has an invitation to a "pity party," but this is a forum for sound and sound related discussions. There is a section on Society & Politics, if you'd like to rant on the economy and how difficult it is to support your lifestyle in today's world. One thing that comes to mind to me is that if you guys doing "bag work" would loosely organize yourselves in regard to agreeing on rates for equipment, that possibly you'd stop having to cut back and include gear for free. Labor rates are going to change due to the market you work/live in, however equipment rental is the same where ever you work/live. Personally, what I would do in regard to taking a job for less money than my gear was rented for, I would deduct from the Labor rate the additional fees so that my equipment invoice would be "paid in full." Showing discounts is the same as giving gear away, IMO, once you establish a "discounted rate" that company or Producer will always want that rate, or they might ask for a discount on some other gear as well, as you've established yourself as the "discount" guy. I call for the I.O.T.B. to be created, the International Order of The Bag!! Set and establish equipment rates and stick to them, make your "adjustments" and "discounts" on your rate, show the Producers that equipment costs money regardless of what they pay you. One other thing that you might be able to consider, is to try and get with the camera people you work with and have them support the use of wireless camera hops. I think at this stage in the evolution of "bag work" that camera "hops" should be S.O.P. and that the camera ops should be supportive of this as well. If both departments are asking for this, it should gain momentum. Now back to my cardboard box in the corner of my local park...... Cheers, Rich Van Dyke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Deutscher Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I call for the I.O.T.B. to be created, the International Order of The Bag!! Set and establish equipment rates and stick to them, make your "adjustments" and "discounts" on your rate, show the Producers that equipment costs money regardless of what they pay you. Was just talking to another sound friend of mine today about this sort of thing and how we need to develop a standard and stick to it. There are some people in our area that give production WAY too much gear for peanuts. Well put RVD! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I call for the I.O.T.B. to be created, the International Order of The Bag!! Set and establish equipment rates and stick to them, make your "adjustments" and "discounts" on your rate, show the Producers that equipment costs money regardless of what they pay you. Rich Van Dyke Well, this idea SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED BY ALL OF US, IN ALL FIELDS OF RECORDING, key word here, SHOULD... It simply does not work in the commercial world, (of give it away cutthroats..) ( the least offensive term I can come up with... meant to simply describe the process of HEAVY or FREE discounting of gear) I don't see how all the cutthroats in that particular end of the recording world would have any luck either stepping up to the plate... There will simply always be people who can not, and will not understand the big Enchilada.... It's just too much for them... I have myself reduced the phenomena to selfishness... It's the only reason I can think of that explains seemingly normal people, with perfectly operating brains (almost perfectly) behaving like this.. OK, desperation.... your about to be out on the street.... I KNOW we all must in some ways at some times discount... but the proper ways have been eloquently described.. I agree with the concept of being desperate and allowing yourself to sell both yourself and the craft out for a gig... being... unsound in principle.. Accepting jobs that are dramatically lower in pay than normal or allowing Producers to not pay for gear at all in some cases.... It really makes me ill... I don't get into it because I am hateful at myself all day long.... and after as well... It was like the old days when you would party till 5am then go to work.... I remember how that felt too.... Have not done that in over 15 years... or more it's been so long.. It's a feeling I also don't care for.. Reminds me of the saying---- This works best looking at it from the female viewpoint... "would you sleep with that guy for $20 bucks?.... OK, how about a million dollars... " Well, your a whore both ways.... even though it was a big payout at a million..... As soon as you degrade yourself for the concept of desperation.... your become a..... well... streetwalker.... Not to bash anyone here, it's just a train of thought... meant in good fun... I have felt dirty at times myself... believe me.... Hell, 8 free comteks ( with 10 already billed) gave me that dirty little feeling, for DAYS!!! Whenever I am pressured to reduce my price, I feel as though I am a dirty guy... I feel like I am about to cheat myself and I also feel guilty of cheating the CRAFT, as if the craft was a loved one.... The craft is really all of you.... and the basic guidelines that are "norms".... We should really all watch our own backs for the good of the whole... I think that feeling as though the craft was someone who I cared about helps me out in times of bargaining stress... It's like working for a company and saying, "hey, I can only go so far here" I work for a company" Give it a try... And, good luck "BAG FOLKS" getting on the same page.... It would be the best thing that has happened since the Nomad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 First, to Mr. Taylor the OP, no disrespect intended. I didn't "pigeonhole" you into the category of "Guy Who Gives Gear Away for Free," you did that yourself when you posted your email to the Producer, in which you state that you include gear for free. Also to Mr. Taylor, shame on you for using the tragic state of the economy for your "excuse" to have to give gear away for free. Did you read your post? You claim that you are struggling to maintain your two mortgages, did it ever occur to you that possibly the majority of members here rent and only dream of owning a home, let alone two? I'm sure that everyone here, including myself, has an invitation to a "pity party," but this is a forum for sound and sound related discussions. There is a section on Society & Politics, if you'd like to rant on the economy and how difficult it is to support your lifestyle in today's world. One thing that comes to mind to me is that if you guys doing "bag work" would loosely organize yourselves in regard to agreeing on rates for equipment, that possibly you'd stop having to cut back and include gear for free. Labor rates are going to change due to the market you work/live in, however equipment rental is the same where ever you work/live. Personally, what I would do in regard to taking a job for less money than my gear was rented for, I would deduct from the Labor rate the additional fees so that my equipment invoice would be "paid in full." Showing discounts is the same as giving gear away, IMO, once you establish a "discounted rate" that company or Producer will always want that rate, or they might ask for a discount on some other gear as well, as you've established yourself as the "discount" guy. I call for the I.O.T.B. to be created, the International Order of The Bag!! Set and establish equipment rates and stick to them, make your "adjustments" and "discounts" on your rate, show the Producers that equipment costs money regardless of what they pay you. One other thing that you might be able to consider, is to try and get with the camera people you work with and have them support the use of wireless camera hops. I think at this stage in the evolution of "bag work" that camera "hops" should be S.O.P. and that the camera ops should be supportive of this as well. If both departments are asking for this, it should gain momentum. Now back to my cardboard box in the corner of my local park...... Cheers, Rich Van Dyke Rich, I'm practically speechless -- did you read any of my other posts in this thread? Did you even try to understand the intention behind what I was saying?...in any of my posts in this thread? Wow, dude... thanks for making all those assumptions about me -- it makes it a lot easier for me to figure out who I am -- you seem to have me pinned. (but you're not pigeonholing me, are you?) Wow... Yeah, cheers... or something. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudioNinja Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I recently had a similar conversation with a repeat client: HIM I've tried to work with other mixers that charge less, and they can't deliver. But I can't justify your rates. ME (internal VO) You just did. We worked it out, but sheesh... so true! the excuses are all there. I got a call regarding a feature that was shooting with a budget of about 350k. they wanted to pay me 1 man band style for the whole 29 days , 5k. I sent them a noob with a H4n and a boom. the noob was super happy that he booked a feature and the producer got what they paid for. I dont give those jobs anymore thought than that. Once the rate is below $300.00/day (including gear-im usually out) BUT I ALWAYS find the person a sound mixer, i give them numbers of guys i know who are having slow months, are new to the game, need to pay rent. There is always someone. I got two super green guys in my rotation who i send out on low budget gigs. They can learn there, cut their teeth and build up some stamina for the game. If they fall off, well they werent meant to graduate to the next level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 The problem with giving a discounted labor rate is that if you go overtime your 1.5x hourly rate is based off of that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 so true! the excuses are all there. I got a call regarding a feature that was shooting with a budget of about 350k. they wanted to pay me 1 man band style for the whole 29 days , 5k. I sent them a noob with a H4n and a boom. the noob was super happy that he booked a feature and the producer got what they paid for. I dont give those jobs anymore thought than that. Once the rate is below $300.00/day (including gear-im usually out) BUT I ALWAYS find the person a sound mixer, i give them numbers of guys i know who are having slow months, are new to the game, need to pay rent. There is always someone. I got two super green guys in my rotation who i send out on low budget gigs. They can learn there, cut their teeth and build up some stamina for the game. If they fall off, well they werent meant to graduate to the next level. Funny, I always find them another mixer too, but I try to steer them to other mixers who I KNOW will charge for a more "normal" rate... That way the PM or Producer learns about regular pricing... especially after 4 phone calls... Although what you do is very admirable, and something any person with a heart should do, I think it re enforces the idea that Production can find a body with a heartbeat to fill the production mixers shoes on any given day. The more we can get all the folks to answer the phone with similar prices, the sooner the "floor" of our pricing across the different versions of production sound will begin to stabilize more towards the top. At $300 a day for anything that requires a human and gear is a price point that should I think never be entertained... Not at least in any professionally produced project... Just the concept of a feature, with a boom pole and a Zoom, one person...I mean a student project, OK, I understand.... I would not even know what to say in response.... It would probably go something like " Am on on one of those Candid camera shows?" or.... Come on Frank, is that you.....?" Once I found out it was not a prank, I would say, why waste time recording with a sound guy at all, open your mic on your T3i, and let it rip... Use your limited funds to add music and effects where your dialog should be... and re think your $350 grand project.... Or was that $350.00 I might of read it wrong.... I just don't know where these things come from... THIS sounds like a Craigslist thing.... They forgot to mention 14 hr days.....LOL BTW. Onemansoundarmy kind of leads to you getting these calls.... ENG is one thing, but they probably thought, hey, this guy is a sound army!! He can do everything for a few bucks, and all by himself....call him, what do we have to loose..... (while laughing of course) I think using a third person to deflect your billing is a good tactic.... " Well, I wish I could go there, but this is a small business we are running and I can't charge those particular rates... I mean I could wiggle just a bit, but my billing and accounting person is my wife and that is just not going to fly.... Again, I can help out a bit, but we have some basic guidelines... and I have agreed to follow them..." Anyone who is married will understand.... I am not kidding, this works and deflects the pressure off of you.... and removes the inability to say anything constructive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted November 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 I think using a third person to deflect your billing is a good tactic.... " Well, I wish I could go there, but this is a small business we are running and I can't charge those particular rates... I mean I could wiggle just a bit, but my billing and accounting person is my wife and that is just not going to fly.... Again, I can help out a bit, but we have some basic guidelines... and I have agreed to follow them..." Anyone who is married will understand.... I am not kidding, this works and deflects the pressure off of you.... and removes the inability to say anything constructive... This is exactly what I've implemented -- they really have nowhere to go from there -- unless they're seriously gonna try and convince someone to get in an argument with their wife... at which point, it would become painfully clear you don't want to work for them because they're crazy! : ) ~tt UPDATE from original post: First of all, I should have chosen my words a little more carefully -- it seems using the word free can get one in a lot of hot water around here... regardless of the context... anyhow, not really wanting to mince worms though... I was able to get them back up to the original rate... I've shifted a few #'s around on my invoice so that absolutely nothing is listed as free... the entire kit rental is discounted based on a percentage, and I've made it very clear to them that this is the exception, not the rule. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 " (internal VO) You just did. " ME (aloud) You just did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Van Dyke Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 Rich, I'm practically speechless -- did you read any of my other posts in this thread? Did you even try to understand the intention behind what I was saying?...in any of my posts in this thread? Wow, dude... thanks for making all those assumptions about me -- it makes it a lot easier for me to figure out who I am -- you seem to have me pinned. (but you're not pigeonholing me, are you?) Wow... Yeah, cheers... or something. ~tt Mr. Taylor, I'm so very sorry for my "pigeonholing" of you, although this was not my intention at all. I made a mistake in posting on this topic, please forgive me. I have no experience in doing the so-called "bag work," or what it entails to negotiate rates for such jobs, and by that admission, I have no reason to be posting under this topic. I was merely trying to point out something that seemed obvious to me, if a microphone costs 'X' dollars a day to rent in New York, it should cost the same in Los Angeles, or Dallas or Seattle. However, again through my lack of knowledge of this "genre" of sound work, I shouldn't have posted and interupted your thread, my apologies. I think BobD put it well when he said, there's a way that things "should work," but rarely do they go that way in the real world. This is so true and I should have thought my posts through, and not have posted. So please, if you can, accept my apology for misguiding your thread. In regard to my salutation of "Cheers," while the Americans here find it unusual, this is a derivative from the English way of saying, "Goodbye, cheerio!" Over the years I've had many communication opportunities with English people and adopted the useage of "Cheers," as a salutation. I've always assumed this was similar to the way the Italians say, "Ciao!" for either hello or goodbye. Sincerely, Rich Van Dyke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 " ... Or was that $350.00 I might of read it wrong.... I just don't know where these things come from... THIS sounds like a Craigslist thing.... They forgot to mention 14 hr days.....LOL " ... and I hate Subway Tuna sandwiches... Tom should have left his OP, too. Bag or cart, this is something to think about, and discuss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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