Linking 664 and 552 in 12 channel mode

[BAB414]

Hey guys,

I've yet to try this out as I like to wait a little while before updating my machine with any new firmware but I wanted to see if there was any reason not to do the following:

Already owning both devices, I was thinking it would be great to use inputs 1-5 in the 552 to send to channels/tracks 7-11 in the 664 instead of going out and buying the Cl-6. Go line level prefade out on each channel and use the link port to send postfader sources to the mix tracks on the 664.

Although you can only do this with five instead of six additional channels, and it would be somewhat bulky and more power hungry, is there any reason not to do this/something I'm missing?

What seems great about this is that each channel gets independent hard trim, fader, pan and low cut filters, you can send mic level to the 552 inputs, with phantom, and create a sub-mix without using one of your X tracks.

Are the 552 preamps the same as those in the 664, or at least similar-sounding? I've yet to do an A/B test.

What level does the link port send/receive? Line level? Am I adding any noise to the signal path?

Anything else you can think of that would need to be resolved?

Thanks!

[studiomprd]

" Anything else you can think of that would need to be resolved? "

you have permission to experiment...

[BAB414]

Thanks for your blessing Mike. Anyone else? Thoughts?

[carbonhobbit]

(Already owning both devices, I was thinking it would be great to use inputs 1-5 in the 552 to send to channels/tracks 7-11 in the 664 instead of going out and buying the Cl-6. Go line level prefade out on each channel and use the link port to send postfader sources to the mix tracks on the 664.)

 

​Since they are both SD products, I'm sure they thought this would work. No different than mating a 442/552 with a 744. And the link was already made to give a mix track to the aux channels. This would just make for a very heavy bag set-up. The pre-amps are not the same, but should make no difference.

 

Scott....

 

[Soundwil]

PFLing might be an issue assuming you'll be monitoring through the 664 headphone out. Could be overcome by routing headphone out of 552 to a return channel of 664.

Just a thought.

[cory]

Sounds like a great cart solution and a lame bag solution

 

Wouldn't it be nice if there was a way to get 5 channels out digitally through 1 cable from the 552 and also into the 664 (like being able to send the audio through the USB ports as a link...)

[Philip Perkins]

I think what the OP mentioned is exactly the sort of thing SD had in mind--a temp lashup for a specific job that needed more than 6 inputs.  I appreciate SD's thinking on this, doing something to help soundies handle bigger jobs on occasion even though it will prob cost them some CL6 sales.  It shows that they understand the realities of production sound these days, esp among soundies doing smaller jobs.

 

philp

[cory]

Hey guys,

Already owning both devices, I was thinking it would be great to use inputs 1-5 in the 552 to send to channels/tracks 7-11 in the 664 instead of going out and buying the Cl-6. Go line level prefade out on each channel and use the link port to send postfader sources to the mix tracks on the 664.

What seems great about this is that each channel gets independent hard trim, fader, pan and low cut filters, you can send mic level to the 552 inputs, with phantom, and create a sub-mix without using one of your X tracks.

 

 

We couldn't resist. No problems with noise-- it's just a little bulky. PreAmps match great between 664, 552, 302, 442, mixPre -- It is supremely cool of SD to release this update, and I could totally see this being super useful. Only "downside" I can think of is losing iso outs that I would normally use for a backup device-- though I think internal SD and CF mirror is totally enough...

 

[Johnny Karlsson]

Hehe... another reason to keep the old 442. 

[Chris Campion]

... even though it will prob cost them some CL6 sales. 

 

philp

I think its a clever move by SD to increase CL6 sales. I for one would never have bothered thinking about getting a CL6 but now we're all thinking of all the ways to use the 12 channels effectively, and eventually resolving that by far the best solution is having a CL6. Well played SD.

[Phillip C Dent]

So I’m linking my 664 and 552 and I cannot get my L/R stereo mix levels to match.  When I put up tone on my 664, I have to turn down the master on the 552 to get the levels to match. But when I put up tone on the 552, the levels on the 664 is -10dB. Is there something I’m missing to make the stereo outputs match?

[Philip Perkins]

I assume you are recording the 2-mix on the 664?  If so then it doesn't matter if the levels match, you just make a mix that you like and meter off the 664.  The 552's meter is sort of irrelevant, you could turn it off if it's a distraction.  Are you going to the 664 from the 552 direct outs in prefade? 

[SonicBoomPole]

The Mix In connection on the 664 requires a specific wiring scheme mentioned in the original manual but has been omitted from the current online PDF manual. Are you using a cable wired this way? If not, then the levels may not match.

Quote

The Link I/O connector is an unbalanced TA5M wired accordingly: pin 1=HP L, pin 2=HP R, pin 3=Mix R, pin 4=Mix L, and pin 5=link detection/ground.

 

 

 

I use to use that that input to return a mono mix from an analog mixer but I didn't use the resistor. I wired it as Pin 4 unbalanced mono and pin 5 screen/ground shell not connected. I didn't need to link the HP outputs so they were no connected either. The level at the 664 mix input was about 8db hotter than what is leaving the other mixer. Free gain!

[Phillip C Dent]

2 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

I assume you are recording the 2-mix on the 664?  If so then it doesn't matter if the levels match, you just make a mix that you like and meter off the 664.  The 552's meter is sort of irrelevant, you could turn it off if it's a distraction.  Are you going to the 664 from the 552 direct outs in prefade? 

Yes, I am going prefade direct outs from the 552.

 

I am not concerned with the stereo levels on the 552. What i need is more post fade level from the 5 channels of the 552 onto the Mix L/MixR on the 664. I’m having to pot up the faders to almost 3 o’clock when I should have the proper levels at noon.

1 hour ago, SonicBoomPole said:

The Mix In connection on the 664 requires a specific wiring scheme mentioned in the original manual but has been omitted from the current online PDF manual. Are you using a cable wired this way? If not, then the levels may not match.

I’m using the sound devices oem cable. I assume that it is wired properly.

[Derek H]

I assume you checked the output level setting? 
 

The wiring needed to mate a 552 to a 664 could be different than what the off the shelf cable has. That cable was originally for linking 442s together. 

[Johnny Karlsson]

Are you using the direct outs? If so, you are basically using the preamps on the 552 to drive inputs 7-11 on the 664. The direct outs on the 552 should be set to pre-fader. If this is what you are doing, use the trim knobs on the 552 to boost the level.

[Phillip C Dent]

1 hour ago, Derek H said:

I assume you checked the output level setting? 
 

The wiring needed to mate a 552 to a 664 could be different than what the off the shelf cable has. That cable was originally for linking 442s together. 

The 442 uses a ta3 link cable

57 minutes ago, Johnny Karlsson said:

Are you using the direct outs? If so, you are basically using the preamps on the 552 to drive inputs 7-11 on the 664. The direct outs on the 552 should be set to pre-fader. If this is what you are doing, use the trim knobs on the 552 to boost the level.

I appreciate your help on this.

 

I can get plenty of level from the direct outs of the 552. The iso tracks on the 664 are fine. The problem is not enough level on MixL/MixR on the 664. I have to crank the faders up in order to get enough level.

[Johnny Karlsson]

You can still boost trim levels of ch 7-11 on the 664 as well, by going into each fat channel and using the Select knob to adjust trim.

[Phillip C Dent]

Thank you Johnny. I understand that I can adjust each channel on the 664. The issue is not with the level of the iso channels. The issue is with the level on the MixL/MixR on the 664. Typically, I could have identical levels on the iso and the MixL/MixR with my faders at the 12 o’clock position. However the linked channels from the 552 will not deliver the same level to the MixL/MixR with the faders in identical position as the faders in the 664. I have to turn the faders up to compensate.  This should not be the case. The faders from the 552 should deliver the same level as the faders on the 664 to the MixL/MixR, but this is not happening. I’m just trying to figure out why.

 

 

[BAB414]

8 hours ago, Phillip C Dent said:

Thank you Johnny. I understand that I can adjust each channel on the 664. The issue is not with the level of the iso channels. The issue is with the level on the MixL/MixR on the 664. Typically, I could have identical levels on the iso and the MixL/MixR with my faders at the 12 o’clock position. However the linked channels from the 552 will not deliver the same level to the MixL/MixR with the faders in identical position as the faders in the 664. I have to turn the faders up to compensate.  This should not be the case. The faders from the 552 should deliver the same level as the faders on the 664 to the MixL/MixR, but this is not happening. I’m just trying to figure out why.

 

 

Glad to see this thread come back to life!

 

Phillip, does adjusting the master output knob on the 552 help? Cranking that up shouldn't affect your pre-fade direct outs.

[Phillip C Dent]

I think this picture will illustrate my issue. I have audio coming into channels 9 and 10 of the 552 and going via direct out into the 664.  As you can see the levels of my isos and MixL/MixR do not much with my faders at 12 o’clock. The stereo outs do not mirror each other. If I turn down the master on the 552 it only affects the 552, but not the 664 stereo out.

 

[Derek H]

I get it seems like the same cable in terms of connectors but I’m saying you should check that it’s constructed the same way. Maybe there’s resistors or something inside the cable and the values need to be adjusted for the 664. 
 

You should just call sound devices for this one. 

[SonicBoomPole]

OK, so out of the 552 (channels 3&4 according to the photo) pre-fade direct out line level. Into the 664 channels 9&10 also line level. Is that correct?

 

I'm not understanding why you even need a mix out from the 552 in the first place? You're sending pre-fader so the 552 fader mix level is irrelevant. The 664 is the master recorder and the 552 is just a dummy mixer used for pre-amps (pre-fader) so set healthy levels on the 552, send the direct outs and you're good. Inputs 9&10 on the 664 feed into the mix of the 664, right? So why the link cable? You can monitor the 552 direct out ISO level on the 664 no problem. No stereo bus linking necessary.

 

Also, you have the 2 channels on the 552 panned hard left and right which will affect the level on the stereo output by 6db (stereo pan law). That won't affect the direct ISO level but will affect the mix output going to the 664 via the link cable.

 

Stereo Pan Law

 

Can you verify the setting of the tone level output on both units? That could explain the difference if the tone output was say, +10db.

 

 

[Phillip C Dent]

1 hour ago, SonicBoomPole said:

OK, so out of the 552 (channels 3&4 according to the photo) pre-fade direct out line level. Into the 664 channels 9&10 also line level. Is that correct?

yes

 

 

1 hour ago, SonicBoomPole said:

I'm not understanding why you even need a mix out from the 552 in the first place?

I'm not taking a mix out of the 552 (although I'm considering that as a possibility since I'm not getting the mix levels that I want out of the 664)  My mix out from the 664 is being sent to multiple cameras.

 

1 hour ago, SonicBoomPole said:

Inputs 9&10 on the 664 feed into the mix of the 664, right? So why the link cable? You can monitor the 552 direct out ISO level on the 664 no problem. No stereo bus linking necessary.

Inputs 9&10 feed into the mix of the 664. However, the purpose of the 552 and the link cable is to have a control surface for the stereo mix.  I can use the physical faders for channels 7-11 (faders 1-5 on the 552) instead of having to pfl the individual channel on the 664 and clicking through to adjust trim and/or fader.

 

I find it odd that the faders (1-6) of the 664 behave differently than faders on the 552 (I'm using them for channels 7-11).  I thought that their levels would match, but they don't. 

 

Thanks for the link to the Stereo Pan Law.  I'll look into it, but I don't think this is the culprit here.

 

1 hour ago, SonicBoomPole said:

Can you verify the setting of the tone level output on both units?

Yes,  This is how I diagnosed the issue in the first place.  

 

I'm getting good results from my recordings.  I'm just trying to figure out why the recorders are not behaving the way I thought they would.

 

Thanks for your input Kevin. 

1 hour ago, Derek H said:

I get it seems like the same cable in terms of connectors but I’m saying you should check that it’s constructed the same way. Maybe there’s resistors or something inside the cable and the values need to be adjusted for the 664. 
 

You should just call sound devices for this one. 

Thanks Derek,

 

I have no idea how to test if there are resistors in the cable.  I sucked it up and spent the $81 on the oem cable to avoid such issues.

 

I have called Sound Devices with mixed results.  When I called regarding this issue, it took them a while to even find a 552 in the shop and even longer to find the mix i/o cable.  She even gave me some inaccurate advice.  I was told that I had to assign channels 7-12 on the 664 to the L/R mix on the menu of the individual channels.  However, if you do this, it will defeat the faders of the 552 and you will have to use the menu to control fader levels - the exact opposite of what I was trying to accomplish. 

[Derek H]

1 hour ago, Phillip C Dent said:

I have called Sound Devices with mixed results.  When I called regarding this issue, it took them a while to even find a 552 in the shop and even longer to find the mix i/o cable.  She even gave me some inaccurate advice.  I was told that I had to assign channels 7-12 on the 664 to the L/R mix on the menu of the individual channels.  However, if you do this, it will defeat the faders of the 552 and you will have to use the menu to control fader levels - the exact opposite of what I was trying to accomplish. 

 

Sounds like the person you talked to had no idea what you're trying to do. I've found Sound Devices phone support to be a little hit or miss depending on who you get. Years ago you would call and basically talk to one of the engineers who made the thing. Now you get people who have to look stuff up or go ask someone else. They'll be able to help you but you may need to call again and dig a little deeper or email.