Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I am faced with having to do a scene in a manner which I know is not the best or the right way to do it. Actress who does not play piano, sits at a baby grand (muted), pretends to play and sings live. Piano music is supplied by off camera keyboard person, taking visual and audible cues from the actress, playing the music on the electronic keyboard. They want to do this without cue aid (silent earpiece) and play "piano" music through a speaker on the set. Not being able to talk them out of this, I am on a search for a digital piano with a really good baby grand sample and a speaker that will as faithfully as possible, reproduce that sound on the set. I plan on placing this speaker in such a position that it sounds good, is hidden from camera, will not move and will sound good married to the mic that will be recording her vocal. I think everyone here knows all the problems this creates so I won't go into all the ways I already know that this is a bad idea. I'm really looking for ideas that will minimize the damage and lead to some degree of success for this scene. You would think that my over 40 years of experience would be able to make a convincing argument for doing this the right way, but no, it's not looking too good. We will be prepared to do it both ways but I am sure that on the day we will only shoot it one way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Interesting, but knowing who you are working for, not that surprising... Most high end Yamaha keyboards have good samples and should be fine for this endeavor. As RVD pointed out the lower the onset speaker the better your recording will be but I'm sure you know that as well. Will the actress be singing into a mic? That would be great for you if she were. Neumann KMS 105's are very good dynamic mics. I'd run the keyboard into a DI box (I use Radial PRO DI passive direct box's) and record it clean on an ISO Trk and send the split signal to the speaker on set. Good luck. Can't wait to hear your experience. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Jeff, One thought is to have a small high quality spkr either hidden directly behind the actor or perhaps mounted on the bottom of the piano to defeat time delay,of course this may be difficult because they will probably have multiple cams and it becomes difficult to hide spkr. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 A couple ideas to try come to mind. Use a high quality playback, like a genelec 1000 series for example. Make sure you use a speaker large enough to recreate the low end of the piano should the music demand (lowest note on a grand has a fundamental of 22hz). Placing the speaker off axis at the mics least sensitive spot could help as long as it doesn't color the piano sound too much. Figure 8 mics often have greater side rejection than super cardioids, and may be worth considering as long as the rear lobe won't pick up unwanted reflections/reverberations from the piano/room, and if you are able to place it optimally. A single speaker playback may help avoid phase issue on the piano. I'm sure there are electric pianos that have great sample sets, but the best electric Pianos I've heard are large sample libraries used in a software sample, and the keyboard is used as a midi controller. As RVD said, keep the volume as low as possible, and record a dry feed of the piano. That's what comes to mind, good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Actually, I strongly suspect that the vocal will (also) be re-recorded in post... --sent from one of my personal computing devices...using a web browsing program can you tell which one..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I'm guessing Jeff wants the quality of the speaker to be high end because it will be married to the off camera piano player on some level. I'm sure we haven't said much that JW hasn't already thought of, but it is fun to suggest things anyway. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Actually, I strongly suspect that the vocal will (also) be re-recorded in post... --sent from one of my personal computing devices...using a web browsing program can you tell which one..? Wrong there. The director has insisted all along that he will NOT be replacing her vocal (that is why I have been trying to utilize a method that will preserve her vocal but they're not buying it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Crew brought up two good points that I forgot. Yamaha's do mimic a baby grand very well, I bought my daughter one years ago, and I was shocked to hear how well they sounded. Crew also mentions the "direct out," for a feed, but I'm sure you already considered that. I'm not so sure a "quality" speaker is necessary, since the actress is not a musician, melody will probably be what she'll be listening for, not quality. The problem with their proposed method is that the sound of the piano (through a speaker on the set) will be intimately married to her vocal --- the sound, the balance, the whole deal, so it has to sound like the piano she is "playing"). All of these problems go away if they are willing to use a silent earpiece and have NO piano sound married to her vocal until it is mixed that way --- vocal track on its own, piano track on its own (or a new piano track played on a real baby grand), mix them and have it sound wonderful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) JW: " The director has insisted all along that he will NOT be replacing her vocal " Okie-dokie, but I was not dismissing your valiant and appropriate efforts, however getting a great vocal performance from an actress on camera in the same take as the best visual performance -plus an acceptable musical performance by the accompanist- is typically a challenge, (or is that not what the scene requires?) in addition to the inherent challenge of the music bleed into the vocal track, possibly compounded by the actress not being an experienced performing musician (?), and, of course also further exacerbated by the productions unwillingness to take your considered, experienced, competent advice and rejecting the latest best available proven technology... or perhaps a real baby grand piano ? unrealistic expectations ?? We'll have to discuss any compromises, and what actually ends up in the movie when it comes out... Edited February 20, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 What Crew said may be the key. If she can be singing into a practical mic, the inverse square law would be your best friend and could save your butt. The other thing I'd offer is that having controlled, well balanced acoustics and a lack of much room sound or reverb will also be advantageous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Not singing into a practical mic unfortunately --- just sitting behind the baby grand in a rather small (but not too bad sounding) room. It easily boomable but no way to achieve the degree of isolation I want (but nobody else seems to want to think about). I think the current thing I need to zero in on now is a fundamental choice of technique regarding using a speaker on set: do I want to try and play the piano music as low as possible, position the speaker so that it is as far off axis as possible, all in an attempt to get separation and isolation, OR, do I want to position the speaker so that the piano music sounds good and full and is right on mic, just like another person sitting next to her? It just kills me that so many potential problems are totally eliminated if we could just do this right with a silent earpiece. Production is out looking today at digital pianos, trying to find one that Warren thinks "sounds good". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Rich, you did a great job (but less of a challenge because Jason was actually playing the real piano, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek H Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Tough call.. Could a smaller speaker positioned inside the piano help create the correct acoustic situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Hey Jeff--I think your first take on this is how I'd go given what the director wants. Yamaha or Kurzweil electric piano sample, direct to your recorder on its own track, then mic the singer however you can and use a good quality speaker to play the track to the actor. The actor and the piano player will have to rehearse a bit to work out sync, although it often doesn't matter so much except for isolated notes and chords in CU. I would not go for a big speaker w/ lots of low end, I'd go for something midfi that made the melody easy to follow at as a low a volume as the actor can handle and still sing out. If the actor is having issues with the piano playback being low enough level that it isn't swamping her vocal mic, then you might consider reinforcing the playback with an ear bug as well-- belt and suspenders. There is no point in trying to make the piano sound exactly like an acoustic piano on the set--it isn't possible with even great speakers, and the playback level you need is much lower than what the piano would be like anyhow. I hope this isn't a big thumping number, maybe more of a softish ballad! I would not worry about making the piano sound come from the muted piano--I'd place the speaker so it works the best re the null of your voice mic. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Unfortunately, no, for several reasons: for one, the piano lid is closed, also, any speaker small enough to hide inside the piano would not have sufficient fidelity to honestly produce the right sound. A small speaker, low fidelity but played super softly, could work by counting on the piano track being laid over it and masking it. Still pretty dicey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I think Philip is onto it. Perhaps playing back a controlled, band limited signal will allow the sound to be more "hi-fi" when the missing frequencies are added in from the direct track. This is one of those situations where I remind myself that I'm not there to do the best work I possibly can, rather I was hired to do the best work I can under the conditions they give me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 JW began: " They want to do this without cue aid (silent earpiece) and play "piano" music through a speaker on the set. " I know this is a dead horse, but why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Thank you Philip, your response is most helpful because I know you've been there and have had to do these sorts of accommodations. I do appreciate all the responses and my hope now is that we will do it both ways: several takes doing the director's way (speaker on set) AND then do some my way (silent earpiece). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Thank you Philip, your response is most helpful because I know you've been there and have had to do these sorts of accommodations. I do appreciate all the responses and my hope now is that we will do it both ways: several takes doing the director's way (speaker on set) AND then do some my way (silent earpiece). The only thing I'd add might be getting set up to grab a good piano take and a good piano+vocal take and be able to use it as a playback track, esp after they've got the shots of her hands, face, etc. It is often way easier for the coverage shots (esp if they are dolly moves) if the track stays exactly the same. One last piece of advice--insist on getting the live performance takes FIRST THING, before the performers get bored with the music or burned out from playing it over and over! philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayes Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 OK, i'm feeling for you.We all know that the Director is doing this the wrong way but we can lead a horse to water but we sometimes cannot make it drink. So,damage limitation time- If this was me i would play the piano at the lowest possible volume out of the speaker for the actress to hear it.I mean really,really low and i would use a Super CMIT on the vocal to try and cancel the music out as best i can,but if there is no Super CMIT i would just really try and go super low with the speaker volume.Like minimum so that the guys in Post can overlay a real grand piano track which will drown out the electric piano coming out of the speaker.I would say that if you can get a constant 20-30db of separation between the actresses voice and the electric piano this will be entirely possible. The problem is,if the Director has already made such a bad decision he is also likely to keep asking you to turn up the electric piano even though the actress will only need to be able to hear it faintly to be able perform her vocal. Good luck my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 I am on a search for a digital piano with a really good baby grand sample and a speaker that will as faithfully as possible, reproduce that sound on the set. Ugh. The piano sounds from the high-end Roland, Yamaha or Kurziweil digital pianos are excellent (and their actionas are good so your piano player will like it) but a typical performance keyboard won't have a speaker system. You could output the sound into a good small keyboard combo (like this one: http://www.rolandus.com/products/details/554/features/) and then take a feed from that to your mixer. All this stuff should be easily rent-able in Los Angeles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al mcguire Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 hi jeff you can plan for the piano speaker to be as low as you would like, but as soon as the actor says she cannot hear the piano, you will have to raise the volume. The good news is any piano sweetening done in post will blend with what was played on set. It might be a good suggestion to have the on set pianist listen to a click track so the tempo will be solid take to take. Are they going to get coverage with cameras or get it in extra takes ? Do you have any friends in the projects post production audio chain as they are the ones who have to make it all work. Do the best you can, thats all you can do. al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Hmmm. Doesn't look good for your team. The only other thought was even though it is boomable and I'm sure you will do it this way, why not put a wire on her for more signal to music ratio? Can't hurt and you have the tracks.... CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayes Posted February 20, 2014 Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 Hmmm. Doesn't look good for your team. The only other thought was even though it is boomable and I'm sure you will do it this way, why not put a wire on her for more signal to music ratio? Can't hurt and you have the tracks.... CrewC For sure,its all about the seperation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 20, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2014 "Do you have any friends in the projects post production audio chain as they are the ones who have to make it all work." I have the full support and understanding of the picture editor, a dear old friend, who is totally in favor of me doing the right way, but sadly he has been unable to sway his other long term friend and fellow worker, the director. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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