soundtrane Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hello, I wanted to know what a turnaround means in the right sense. If i am shooting through the night, wrap in the morning, and the next day is a day call, is this a turnaround? my best regards -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael P Clark Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Turnaround is the time between wrap and your next call time. We typically get 10 hours of turnaround. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 In the US, a "turnaround" can refer to the process and timing of how one work day follows the previous one (the word has many other meanings as well, even in the movie biz). What I think you are speaking of is how long the "turnaround" is in this case, ie how many hours between wrap on a given day and the call time of the next. The (contentious) issue in play is usually in regards to "short-turnaround", meaning that the time off between days is shorter than A: what was ageed to in the contract for that production (whether real and negotiated or merely verbal or implied) and possibly B: what is both possible for the people involved to sustain over the course of the job and what is safe for them to attempt in this connection. "Turning around" from day shoots into nights and vice versa is difficult, and continual "short turnarounds" wear the crew down, people get sick, make mistakes, and in tragic cases, get into traffic accidents because they fall asleep at the wheel. There is terrific pressure all the time to lengthen the shooting day and shorten the turnarounds, some of it is economic, but some also comes from a clash of cultures between above the line people, who will do those burn-out schedules because they can stop doing them when THEIR show wraps and they are in post etc., and crew people who find that ALL of their jobs, every working day, want those kinds of terms, and they watch their personal lives, marriages, kid-time etc drift out of their lives. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted December 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 <<"Turning around" from day shoots into nights and vice versa is difficult>> This is specifically what i was referring to. How is this done? Do you shoot the last of the nights, wrap in the morning and then start the next day with a day shift? -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted December 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 <<We typically get 10 hours of turnaround.>> Does this include or exclude travel time to location? -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Toline Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 <<We typically get 10 hours of turnaround.>> Does this include or exclude travel time to location? -vin If you wrap at say 9pm and call is at 8am the next day you have an 11 hr turnaround. If it takes an hour to get home and an hour back that's included. Think of it like a 9-5 job. Getting to the job on time is your responsibility. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 The standard practice on film shoots in the U.S. is to provide a minimum of 10 hours between wrap and call for the next day. Most everyone agrees that this is a minimum necessity to permit proper rest and also allow for commute time. A production that did not permit a 10 hour rest period between days, or that expected day after day to be worked with only the minimum 10 hour break, would soon experience either rebellion or a very significant drop off in productivity. The actual IATSE union agreement requires only an eight hour break between workdays, if I read the contract correctly. The language governing this appears in the "Golden Hours" provisions (page 46 in my copy) and states that: (Section 3, subsection (Once an employee is on Golden Hours, all work time thereafter (including meal periods, but excluding interruptions as defined below) shall be paid for at the applicable Golden Hour rate until he shall have received a rest period of not less than eight ( consecutive hours. As I understand it, nothing prevents a producer from scheduling night work on the day before a weekend - or a day off - and then scheduling day work on the first day of the new week. So, if you were on location and working a six-day week, you might have a long night on Saturday and then be expected to come in early on the Monday, effectively depriving the worker of a functional day off on the Sunday. This practice has long been a source of bitter resentment but, so far as I can tell, not in violation of the standard contract. I believe that there was once a contractual guarantee that a weekend or a day off would contain a minimum number of hours. But I don't think that is any longer in effect. There are provisions for overtime pay for work on a sixth or seventh consecutive day in a single workweek but I don't see any contractual definition of a day off. As a practical, rather than a contract, matter, anything less than 10 hours between wrap and call is an unsafe working condition. David Waelder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 8, 2008 Report Share Posted December 8, 2008 Hello, I wanted to know what a turnaround means in the right sense. If i am shooting through the night, wrap in the morning, and the next day is a day call, is this a turnaround? my best regards -vin Vin, Here we have 10 - 12 hours turn around, depend on how hectic is the schedule. Travel time included. Hows your 6 pack? Do you still need the 10amp charger? I can send you mind, return me when you are coming to visit, don't worry I have spare. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Vin, To answer your question directly... If you are asked to work a night shoot, let's say wrapping at 6am, then are expected to come back at 8am to start a day shoot, you would NOT be receiving appropriate turnaround. You are technically being given an unpaid break during one VERY long production day. While this might happen when you are day-playing and find yourself booked on two separate jobs that happen to time out this way, a production company should not schedule this. If they did, it is what a union contract refers to as a forced call, and if you are on a union contract you would continued to be paid at the rate you finished work (usually double-time) until you are given the appropriate break. The standard IATSE agreement has turnaround on a studio lot at 9 hours, and on location it at 10 hours. All low budget agreements have a 10 hour turnaround, but their compensation on forced call varies based on how short your turnaround is. There is no provision in any contract for a weekend. We usually have to rely on actor turnaround to save us. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Gordon Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 A short Turn-around is like a very bad Reach-around!!!!! sorry... But, if you are working for the right people and in a proper setting, the finacial benifit can be very cool. Example: I was working for ABC News durning the DNC here in Denver, CO this past summer. ABC had us working till 12 am on Sunday evening/Monday morning. Then of course comes the nasty call at 6am Monday morning, "Be here ASAP!" In news, once you get the call, you're on the clock. So only a 6 hour turnaround. BUT, we started the day on overtime! And some 18 hours later we finished on Triple time. Not a great way to work all the time, but I think most people can do that once in a while. The finacial compensation was way worth it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Daddyo Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 With ABC there are penalties for short turnaround but you never start a day with OT and there is no triple time. I've done many 24 hours days for ABC and then start again with less than 8 hours turnaround so I do have some experience. Those days of golden hours are far gone. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Daddyo Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 I also meant to say that there is time and half after 8 hours. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chas Gordon Posted December 12, 2008 Report Share Posted December 12, 2008 That wasn't my understanding of that situation. I'll have to go back over the pay stub and see. That's the way it was explained to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 On the film I just finished which was under the IA contract we had the following turnaround; DP-10 hrs ACs-9 hrs Sound-8 hrs Not so great as it was a bit of a grinder and we were the last dept. to get into turnaround. When we were at a distant location the turnaround went up to 9 hrs for sound. I suppose the thought is that sound is less physical than camera in general but not on this particular gig. Scott Harber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 30 years in the IA and I have received or was forced into a turn around situation three times that I can remember, so maybe 10 times. The three I recall were crazy mad affairs. The 3rd one was 3 months ago. Day 1 we wrap at midnight after doing a 18 hr day recording wild track. Day 2 we had a 6:00 am call in Malibu. General crew was 5:30 for a sunrise shot. The PA's 5:00 am. Add in commuting time and it gets criminal. The Commercial Contract we work under is 10 hrs crew, 12 hrs for the actors, none for the PA's..... Day 2 we, (MD n I), go another 18 hrs, the crew does 20, and the PA's 22 hrs. On day 2, I started my in double time for the first 4 hrs. Then straight time for the next 4 hrs until I reach 8 hrs then I am into time n a half, which is the rate until I reach 12 hrs, and I am back into double time until we are wrapped. No way to run a shoot, but there we were. Not good for anyone or the work. Kept going over and talking about "Who Needs Sleep" to friends, production, and anyone near by. Madness IMO. MD n I made an obscene amount of blood money for recording wild track that was shot with wild non sound film cameras. I couldn't even talk them into stix for post syncing at a later date. We rolled on every shot, made maybe a third of the shots work if anyone was ever going to wade thru the hours of media we created on that 2 day shoot. Some cats on the crew said they needed/wanted the OT. I tried to give the Prod Co an out during the first day and let us go. The PA's, well thats the 'Entry Level Position' as they say. Glad to report that all made it home alive, but the worst for wear n tear..... Tired just thinking about it. Time for bed. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 Crew, I'm curious about your forced call pay. The rules as I understand them in the basic agreement is that you are paid at the rate you wrap until you are given actual turnaround. Meaning you should have been in double time until you were given a full turnaround. It's my understanding in the past that you started at double time and then were paid 1.5x that rate (effectively triple time) after 8 and then twice the rate (quad time) after twelve. I am curious if the commercial contract is different in that you were only paid double time for the first four hours (the amount of time you were forced). Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 Richard, I know that in most circumstances triple and quad time are things of legend. I was paid triple time once a few years ago on a sixth day after 12 hours, and I wonder if quad time would have been paid after 12 on a seventh day. As for forced call pay, I am surprised to read that you are only paid for the time forced. It seems that such a huge deal is made of taking turnaround and "no forced call without UPM approval" on every call sheet. So much so that I have NEVER had a forced call in more than 10 years in the IA. If they only had to pay for the time forced, then a 6 or 12 minute force would be no big deal and I would think it would happen all the time. I was certain that language in the basic agreement read that you start your day at the rate you leave until you are wrapped and given appropriate turnaround (10 on location and 9 on stage). Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 15, 2008 Report Share Posted December 15, 2008 I can't say for sure that I stated it right or not, but that is my understanding of forced call. Thats what they paid me on my commercial. There are so many contracts out there that I doubt anyone can know them all. When RVD n I started, Saturdays were 1.5 time days as our straight time and Sundays were double time as straight time. It was on those days we could get what we called double double time or double time and a half when we went over 12 hours. That was quad and triple time. As RVD points out, that was long ago. To bad cause I work most weekends these days CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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