20 Talent Table read advice needed

[Phillip C Dent]

A very good client of mine just offered me a very challenging audio job and I would like to get some advice from the forum members here since this is out of my wheelhouse.

 

The shoot consists of up to 20 actors doing a table read.  Ideally they would want an iso track of each actor and an automix of the entire session.  I am not familiar with what gear exists to get this done.  Are there automixers that have 20 inputs?  My first thought was to stack four Sound Devices 664/668s to record the isos and then direct out to an automixer.  I'm thinking that there is a better way to do this.   Any expertise would be greatly appreciated.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

That's a lot of gear for a table read.  But if they are willing to pay for it...

I'd also do a live mix from reading along with the script rather than automix, but that's just me.

Scorpio is the first item that comes to mind.  You'll have to figure out how to get the right kind of inputs, but in theory it's a 32 track recorder.  I believe the first 16 can be analogue or digital, and the top 16 have to be digital with either dante or an appropriate cable loom, but check the specs for yourself.  You'll definitely need receivers with digital outputs ... but I don't recall exactly how its inputs are split.

Or, link two smaller recorders together, both with automix enabled.  You'll need to do a study / test to figure out the best way to do this, but I would think it would work if the automix output from one is fed into an input in the other.  At worst, don't include the first recorder in the second recorder's automix, and you'll end up with something close, but with two mics active at any given time.

Coordinating 20 frequencies will be no small feat.  I'd probably want a digital system rather than analogue, especially in your Southern California locale.  SD Nexus + 4 extra channels?  Or maybe a rack-mounted theatre-oriented system like Shure Axiant?  Either way, dante is probably a useful feature.

Beyond that ... I'm curious to hear what others say.  The most I've managed is 13 lavs, which I did split across 2 recorders in a setup I affectionately called frankenbag.  Next time, I would insist on renting a single recorder and more consistent gear.

[Dalton Patterson]

Rent 2 shure axient 12 channel rack mounted kits 3 rack units, 4 channels per, will take up some space and weight. Have 4 spare wireless,  trust me. Wireless workbench the freq’s and Dante into 2 Scorpio’s. Scorpios Dugan is limited to 16 channels. Done. You’re gonna have your work cut out for you mic’ing up 20 people. Seems doable. Go to the parking lot a few days before and do a scan. Arrive with 24 freqs ready to roll. No syncing or setting freqs on the day. If anything is not working or whatever you just grab a spare and it’s already freqs, syncd and patched. Wrangling 20 people is gonna be fun, the less involved you are the better. I’d suggest going clockwise/ counter whatever in chairs/channel order so you can visually see what channel is speaking and confirm it on your track meters. Sounds fun.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Was thinking more last night about how to get 20 clean wireless channels.  Aside from Axient, I think Zaxcom is the smallest unit that could do the job: Rx12 with 6x MRX414 modules gives 24ch in one unit, though you'll lose "true" diversity to get that many, so use two if you think you need it.  Or Wisycom would be the best analogue choice; it's narrowband mode is great for high channel counts.  I haven't used their rack receivers, but they exist...

Make sure you know your wireless filtering or get help ... as I said, coordinating that many frequencies isn't for the faint of heart.  Dalton's advice of doing it in advance is essential ... you need half a day at least to set up, so make sure you anticipate billing for a prep day.

[Tobi A]

Do you need wireless if they are just sat around a table? Mics on desktop stands not an option?

[Patrick Farrell]

I've done this very thing with Peter Schneider before. We used DPA gooseneck tabletop mics (I think the 4098) hardwired into a RIO stagebox with dante back to a Yamaha QL5 console. That board gives you 16 Dugan automix channels so just pick 4 minor characters and assign them to a fader you bring into the mix as you follow along the script. I think we recorded everything on a scorpio or a pix970 but anything with enough tracks is fine. Lastly since the actors were so spread out around the tables and there was also a gallery of producers, we set up several reinforcement speakers with a mix-minus for whatever group was in front of each speaker. The Glensound Divine monitors made quick work of that with their dante and POE.

[Johnny Karlsson]

With 20x wires, make sure you get to bring on at least 2x qualified assistants. 

[greg sextro]

I've done some table reads in the past, long enough ago that we used Shure auto-mixers.  Wired mics will be much easier to deal with.  MKH50s are great for this

[Phillip C Dent]

Thanks everyone for your input. I’m doing a scout of the location tomorrow. I’ve been told that this is a space where this has been done before and there are gooseneck mics on the tables already. So I should be able to use those table mics but I will probably need to mic up hero actors as well. Information is spotty and budget might determine what will be recorded and delivered. The location is in the heart of Hollywood so I am concerned about trying to coordinate 20 frequencies.

[Philip Perkins]

This number of inputs is more easily handled by a real console (vs. a stack of portable mixer-recorders).   My pref would be Yamaha (CL/QL) since they can have real Dugan automix cards in them.  You seem to be in SoCal so there is a lot of rental gear available.  (There are other mixers with various sorts of automix too, most of us here prefer the Dugan.)  I'd record out to a laptop via Dante--that would give you as many tracks as you need.  To get that many people on lavs in a reasonable amount of time you will need skilled (ie real pro A2) help, as was said, ideally 2.  20+ is a lot of wirelesses to manage, I'd be asking if we can go hardwire.  I'd also be asking if they can live with neat small lav mics on the outside of the actor's clothes (since this is an obviously artificial situation, not pretend-real drama).  You'll still have to give them a wardrobe-choice lecture, since it is likely the talent will be wearing their own clothes.

[Matthew Steel]

In the live side of my work I use Allen and Heath dLive and it has "Dugan style" gain sharing automix built in.  I have never had the need to automix that many channels but I think it has the capabiity.  I think the Avantis line has the same/similar capabilities.  Where some other mixers are limited to 8 channels, etc.

[Ontariosound]

Exposed lavs would make the job so much easier.  And sound better.  Could you ask if this is OK ?

[Phillip C Dent]

So new information has come to light regarding this job. This is not just the cast doing a table read for camera. It will be done for a live audience of 200+ people. So as I understand the situation the client who is putting on the event already hired someone to do the live sound. Then they decided that they want it filmed so they hired a production company who in turn hired me. I haven’t contacted the guy who will be running the live sound, but I was able to see his bid so I know what gear that he’s bringing to the party.  He is bringing a Yamaha QL-5 mixing console with  20 Shure MX-418 desktop microphones. He will bring a Rio Dante interface and record everything to pro-tools. 
 

When I thought that I would be handling all the sound needs I brought in another sound guy with experience with high track count live events. He recommends using a Yamaha DM7, utilizing its Dugan automix and noise reduction capabilities then interfacing via Dante into a Sound Devices PIX 970. Also, since we will have 20 people in a straight line across the stage he thinks that we would get better results using ten DPA  4018es table top mics - using 1 mic per two talent. Anyone have strong opinion on mic selection and setup? 
 

We also asked about the possibility of putting lavs on some of the hero talent to use for our record and not for the live mix, but haven’t heard back yet.  I also need to get audio to cameras of which there will be a minimum of 6. I don’t need to get audio to all of them, but as many as possible and they all need to be jammed with Timecode.

 

So thats the challenge as I understand it. I think the best case scenario is that we have one guy for the live mix and at least one guy for the “broadcast” record - and that we can all play nicely together.

 

My goal is deliver the editor a useable automix and also isos in case he needs to dig something out that got stepped on. The editor has also requested some iso tracks of audience reaction audio.

 

Thanks to all who have offered advice. It doesn’t look like we will need to lav mic everyone up as was the initial challenge, but we do have a Shure axient rack on hold if there is a change of plans.

[Philip Perkins]

So if the FOH sound guy is recording everything off the QL5 and his RIO to Dante in multitrack, isn't the gig now covered?  Or do they want redundant recording?  It sounds like the FOH guy has made the mic choice and the client has bought off on that, so off they go.  I'd be a little concerned with sync with the FOH guy's recording, like can his PT rig take TC from video?   If you want your own recording you could take a Dante feed from his Rio to your own computer, and add hall and audience mics if that guy isn't doing those, as well as video TC.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Table mics is a better choice than lavs IMO.  It's what I would have gone with originally except you already seemed to be locked in to lavs.  And if there's already a live mix, it's probably much more about sharing equipment and making sure both mixes get everything they need than starting from scratch.

I don't love the Shure MX-418s, they tend to sound thin to me, but they are fine if that is what is in place already.  Way easier than dealing with 20 tracks of wireless, and the added labour of micing everyone.  I think you job now is figuring out how to get dante copies of all the inputs, add what you need for audience ambience, and getting the sync right.  I would make your own recording if you can; it simplifies your deliverables, and you'll rest easier knowing you've got it properly synced (see Philip's concern).  Assuming the cameras just need scratch audio and they don't intend to cut from it, IFBs / Comteks are probably the easiest way to get audio into that many cameras.  If you need production quality, there are higher end options out there (Zaxcom RX200 or URX100, w/ timecode and audio in one box?), but I wouldn't bother unless they specifically ask for production quality audio to all cameras (seems unlikely given they are willing to run without audio on some cameras if necessary).

One question I have is:  Are you mixing live to a video stream, is it archival, or will it be mixed for broadcast later?  If it's live or for broadcast, you'll want to think through the audience / "house" audio aspect a bit more thoroughly to make sure you have everything you need (audience questions?  an MC?  what kind of audience ambience?).  If it's live, you may need to do some coordination with the streaming team to make sure you are compensating for video delay (they can probably handle this themselves, but it's still something you should be thinking about).

[Phillip C Dent]

Update:  We've decided to go with the 20 Shure mx-418s instead of the 10 Schoeps.  We will have a FOH Mixer with a Yamaha QL-5 desk.  Also, we will have a Yamaha DM7 desk for the tracking and a Sound Devices Scorpio for recording and distro to cameras, all on a Dante Network.  Along with the 20 table top mics, we will have a VOG mic for an emcee.  The editor has also requested audience reaction mics, so we will probably plant 4 mics around the venue to get a good audience mix.

 

As far as I know we will not be mixing down to a live video stream, but I would not be surprised if that is brought up last minute.  Tomorrow is a tech day for us to make sure everything works together.