Freeheel Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Nice answer from Phil - I was crafting a similar reply, but he said it better... Since this thread is also about correcting terminology, a small point about Jacob's post about "small diaphragm condensers" and "shotguns" Both shotguns and "pencil mics" are considered small diaphragm microphones. "Large diaphragm" condensers have a diaphragm of an inch or more wide and are usually side address studio mics like a Neumann U87. Diaphragm size does not correspond to the size of a microphone's interference tube... even a long gun like a Sennheiser MKH 816 is a "small diaphragm" condenser... Cheers, Brent Calkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 The MK41 is a more versatile mic for all sorts of audio applications--it is a very popular mic for musical instrument and recording for example, used both close and in stereo etc rigs at a distance. Back in the late 1970s or so it was discovered that it was really great for getting clear dialog pickup from a group of actors moving around a somewhat boomy interior location (like a movie set), as was said--very natural, very forgiving of being somewhat off axis. This was mostly in comparison to mics like the Sennheiser 415, which really required you to be on-axis or the sound would be colored in an audible way. We found that with the MK41 the sound was pretty much the same off-axis, just at a lower volume. Try it (or an MK4, a standard cardioid) sometime in a situation like that and you will see what I mean. Nowadays things are tougher for the Sound Dept.--wide and tight, noisier locations etc, so the "normal" dialog mic has kind of grown into a shotgun, with some sacrifice of off-axis response, but better BG rejection for what you are on axis with. I think this is why Schoeps came out with the CMIT--something that had the Schoeps "sound" but felt like it had more reach. The downside is that it is a more specialized tool, less suited to other kinds of audio work. For myself, I find myself using mics with the pattern of the CMIT most of the time for dialog nowadays, for the reasons stated above, and my MK41s mostly work on music gigs. phil p Interesting thanks. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Super CMIT? I'd be interested to know how you think it compares? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Interesting thanks. Have you had a chance to evaluate the Super CMIT? I'd be interested to know how you think it compares? thanks. So far I think it's a beautiful wonderful sounding thing that I can't afford! Esp. the digital version. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denielle Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 So far I think it's a beautiful wonderful sounding thing that I can't afford! Esp. the digital version. phil p Nice. I keep telling my husband that we really, really need one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers Keeping in mind that the mic won't cry and smell if you don't have it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I recommend you to get something like the really cheap Oktava MK012 which is similar in sound to a MK41 and is also a small condenser and use it for indoors shots where there is a lot of reverb. You will notice that the super cardioid sounds less direct but also more open and natural and this can lead to a better eligibility. Then, if you try a cardioid mic the difference is even more extreme, but it can be amazing. If I work with a DP who doesn't need to show a meter of headroom in his shots I do like a cardioid best. The reason why the CMIT has become so popular in such little time is, according to my boom op, because it is very forgiving, meaning it still sounds on if he's a little off. That's not the case with the Sennheisers and Neumanns to that extent. The SuperCMIT is not used much for drama. It's good for sports from what I hear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 If I can fit a CMIT into any shot, I'll go for it. If I can't fit it in there, I'll go with the MK41. Very good match sonically IMHO. The CMIT can be a wee bit thin on females though. That's where the MKH50 really shines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denielle Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers Keeping in mind that the mic won't cry and smell if you don't have it. I am doing cloth diapers just for that reason! Anyway, I am really committed to managing being a mom and working. And, I feel good about that. My husband is also a sound guy, so we can alternate. I love my job too much to leave it... <3 and we are at a real critical point in our sound careers, I believe. Still... you are right. Super CMIT. Probably not right away. A set of Sanken Lavs??? Coming right up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denielle Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 That's where the MKH50 really shines. That's interesting and good to know. I am noticing the MKH50 seems to be the Sennheiser superstar (besides the 416 which is a workhorse, but falls in a different category). When I got my CMIT5U... I was about to get an MKH60, and the CMIT changed the game for me completely. But, I am noticing a lot of people here use the MKH50. And, able to mix it in amongst the Schoeps microphones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 one more time: shotguns use different acoustics, specifically the interference tube, vs. the hypercardioids mic's. sometimes the terminology varies, but the key difference is IT, or no IT. (IT as in CMIT, btw) " a small diaphragm condenser i.e. pencil microphone vs. a standard shotgun mic like a 416 etc.? " another "beware of terminology" issue. Large diaphrams are the studio mic's, handheld mic's are not LD mic's, and the really small (thin) ones are usually Electrit condenser mic's don't be mixing apples and beef. IT's tend to suffer lobes and off axis coloration even more than (non-IT) hyper-cardioid's. to make your own personal choices, you really ought to do your own personal listening... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 one more time: shotguns use different acoustics, specifically the interference tube, vs. the hypercardioids mic's. sometimes the terminology varies, but the key difference is IT, or no IT. (IT as in CMIT, btw) " a small diaphragm condenser i.e. pencil microphone vs. a standard shotgun mic like a 416 etc.? " another "beware of terminology" issue. Large diaphrams are the studio mic's, handheld mic's are not LD mic's, and the really small (thin) ones are usually Electrit condenser mic's don't be mixing apples and beef. IT's tend to suffer lobes and off axis coloration even more than (non-IT) hyper-cardioid's. to make your own personal choices, you really ought to do your own personal listening... It must be Vegas/RAMPS hangover. We've already covered all that. As I imagine you've told your students a time or two: "You're on the wrong page." Rumor has it that you won a boom pole in the RAMPS raffle and then proceeded to explain to everybody how to use one. I hope you enjoyed the party -- sorry I missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 " We've already covered all that. " I agree (thus 'one more time') but some folks were apparently sleeping... sorry you couldn't make it this year... BTW, what is that thing I won used for ?? I though mic's like that were replaced by using wireless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 " We've already covered all that. " I agree (thus 'one more time') but some folks were apparently sleeping... sorry you couldn't make it this year... BTW, what is that thing I won used for ?? I though mic's like that were replaced by using wireless... It's what you use to put a wireless on someone with bad breath -- the proverbial ten foot pole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 Microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers... microphone... or diapers Keeping in mind that the mic won't cry and smell if you don't have it. Yeah, but in my life I've mostly driven CARS that cost about what the SUPER costs.....but no denying the sound though. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergiofucchi Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Good afternoon. I am new here. I have bought a 816T and I would to know how I have to turn the inteference grid when I point this mic. The others shotgun mics have two grids, but this has only one, Thank You. (I'm sorry for my english.... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Waelder Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 The subject of using or avoiding interference tube (shotgun) mikes indoors comes up frequently on this site. In general, the advice to save the shotguns for exteriors and rely on cardioid & hyper-cardioid mikes in interiors is good. As the shotgun is moved about to follow action, the acoustics change and there is, or can be, a tonal difference. But a shotgun can be quite useful in an interior situation where the mike doesn't need to be moved about. It can often be employed to good advantage as a plant mike directed at a stationary speaker. (I expect this is well known to all the experienced pros on this forum but I mention it for the benefit of the members with less experience who may hesitate to use a valuable tool because of chorus of advice against it.) David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 " how I have to turn the inteference grid when I point this mic. " Hi, and welcome... just point the end toward the desired sound/ away from the undesired sound. pretty basic, really... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 " how I have to turn the inteference grid when I point this mic. " Hi, and welcome... just point the end toward the desired sound/ away from the undesired sound. pretty basic, really... Ehh you might want to try understanding the question or you could come across as trying to be rude? Are you trying to be condescending? He's asking whether the direction in which the slots face makes any difference, up, down, one side or the other in relation to off axis incoming sound ... pretty basic reading the question, really ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 " understanding the question " Oh, my, yes... I notice that no one else, including pindrop has actually answered that question any better than I did, since when the microphone is pointed toward the desired sound, and/or away from undesired sound, nothing else makes any particular difference with any proper, functioning shotgun (IT) type mic, as long as the ports/slots are not blocked. (proper wind protection does not count as blocking...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 Yes true I haven't answered the question because I'm unsure with an 816 with one row of slots only about a quarter of the circumference open down one side, but lets imagine a scenario - We're filming at a noisy country fare in which there is ploughing competition being conducted, we're trying to interview one of the competitors who has just jumped out of her tractor and we're glad she's turned her engine off as the tractor is directly behind her, however unfortunately the next competitor has started and is ploughing in their noisy tractor at ninety degrees to the left of the axis of our interview, now intuition might suggest that having the open slots facing away from the tractor ploughing might help reduce the level of the unwanted noise getting to the capsule, on the other hand the phase cancellation might not work as well, or it might be swings and roundabouts and not make any significant difference. I've never experimented with this myself so I don't know whether it makes any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted April 20, 2012 Report Share Posted April 20, 2012 " understanding the question " Oh, my, yes... I notice that no one else, including pindrop has actually answered that question any better than I did {Cough!} "just point the end toward the desired sound" isn't really an answer but a useless and unhelpful admonition. Many people have answered questions better than you in that they have actually answered a question... Just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 The problem is, Sergio, that I don't think anyone here has the answer, therefore some people are avoiding the question with non-answers. Not helpful, is it? My guess is, that for all practical purposes, it won't make much of a difference under most practical circumstances as long as the ports are in the clear. But, I recall there's a manufacturer (I don't remember which one) who touts that their mics pick up equally vertically and horizontally which sounds like they're implying that some mics don't pick up equally in all directions around the main axis of the mic. I realize that I haven't really answered the question, either, but at least this aims the conversation back toward the actual question. If anyone has the opportunity to do some testing/listening, that would be informative for all of us. My 816 has only a single side of ports but I don't know when I'll have it where I could do some meaningful tests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denielle Posted April 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 But a shotgun can be quite useful in an interior situation where the mike doesn't need to be moved about. It can often be employed to good advantage as a plant mike directed at a stationary speaker. I think a pretty great boom op can make a boom inside a bit more useful. But, yes... I clearly understand the times when it is useful to have a cardioid or super cardioid on hand. I am looking forward to being able to add one to my kit. I think wireless mics are helping to form bad habits in this regard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 I've had both 816 and Neumann KMR 82i shotguns for many years, and have never noticed any difference in sound pickup based on which way the slots face. Most of the time those mics live inside zeppelins (since the mostly play outdoors), so I don't actually recall which way slots are oriented at the moment. For the Neumann, I probably mount it in the cradle with the badge up, but only because I think it looks cool, really. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted April 21, 2012 Report Share Posted April 21, 2012 But... " just point the end toward the desired sound " that is the answer..., and JB's thoughts are, substantially correct, it makes no discernible difference. I further suspect, since my first reading of the OP, that the question thought there would be some major, noticeable difference based on orientation of the slots, which there typically is not! I further added: " pretty basic, really... " because it is. * OK, why did I say typically ?? because one of you folks would be certain to conjecture up some totally atypical situation, in an effort to discredit my answer, like: 'say the mic is laying on a table with the port side down', or something... also remember these mic's are not designed for close up (aka Rock 'n Roll) vocals, but to be used at a bit of distance with free space around the interference tube, and in the proper situations, there is no discernable difference from the tube's orientation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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