Alternatives to Lectrosonics

[André Boisvert]

I'm looking for a used wireless setup. We have, in the past, rented Lectro systems and our main rental house carries old 187 and 190/195 (non-D) systems. I've always been impressed with the quality and reliability so I started looking at a used 195 diversity system to start. With a Lav mic and no plug-on transmitter it would be roughly the same cost as a similar Senn 100 G3 system.

I like the idea that we'd be getting a known quantity with the 195D, even if some of that knowledge is of the system's shortcomings. Ideally we'd love to eventually get a 400-series lectro setup, but we spend more time with the boom than wireless mics, so this would be for added coverage or situations where the boom simply isn't feasible.

One big difference being that the G3's are frequency agile. With the 195 or 195D, you've only got one frequency. If you travel at all, frequency agility is a must.

[Petros Kolyvas]

The big difference being that the G3's are frequency agile. With the 195 or 195D, you've only got one frequency. If you travel at all, frequency agility is a must.

We don't travel much outside of Quebec or Ontario (hello fellow Montréaler!) but ultimately I might be best served to save up for a 400-series system that will last some time. I've been so happy with my Lectro rentals I would rather stick with them.

I guess I could also get a g3 to tide me over which I put away the bucks... having two wireless setups can't be a bad thing...

[André Boisvert]

We don't travel much outside of Quebec or Ontario (hello fellow Montréaler!) but ultimately I might be best served to save up for a 400-series system that will last some time. I've been so happy with my Lectro rentals I would rather stick with them.

I guess I could also get a g3 to tide me over which I put away the bucks... having two wireless setups can't be a bad thing...

Beautiful day today, wasn't it?

There are lots of used 200's and 400's out there. Just keep in mind that the DTV and white space stuff that happened in the US this year will hit us starting August 2011, so best to stay away from blocks 27 and up.

[Petros Kolyvas]

Beautiful day today, wasn't it?

There are lots of used 200's and 400's out there. Just keep in mind that the DTV stuff that happened in the US this year will hit us starting August 2011, so best to stay away from blocks 27 and up.

Thanks for the heads up. And yes, it was lovely out today. What a November we've had! We were shooting at farms across the province last week and it was mind-blowingly beautiful - especially for this time of year.

[Philip Perkins]

Yea, only it is not XLR!!!  Mini plug cable out of the receiver acts as the second antenna for diversity operation.

Phillip, when you say you do the best you can with what you get, what have been some of the problems.  The G2 and G3 systems are pretty darn good for the price, yes, they won't pass the key jingling test, but 90% of the docs and shooters with BURRITO CAMS, hand me their transmitters and say it has worked well for them in the past. 

True.  What I hear in post from G2s is grungey audio, distortion, not as clear as my Lectros, even the old analog ones.  But they serve.  Sennheiser has sold them in big numbers because they work very well for the price as long as you understand their limitations and set them up properly.

Philip Perkins

[FSBELLA]

Don,

Sounds likeyou are looking for the "best bang for you buck" wireless system and for $599 -MAP, The Sennheiser G3 you will not go wrong. we have sold many units since they came out a few month ago and have no complaints at all.

they are made out of a stronger metal housing- the G2'S were made out of that thin plastic. they have a few good features-like auto scan, more frequency choices and the feed back from my clients, even better range. they even make a battery pack for the TX. as a one poster stated most people do upgrade to a tram-tr50 or a sanken. we made these custom cables to adapt a lav wired for Lectro to senn.

so if you already have one or just want to rent a "higher end" lav, we have the cable option for that application, I think other vendors have those as well.

Good Luck

Frank

www.audiodepartment.tv

[DonSpaulding]

Don,

Sounds likeyou are looking for the "best bang for you buck" wireless system and for $599 -MAP, The Sennheiser G3 you will not go wrong. we have sold many units since they came out a few month ago and have no complaints at all.

they are made out of a stronger metal housing- the G2'S were made out of that thin plastic. they have a few good features-like auto scan, more frequency choices and the feed back from my clients, even better range. they even make a battery pack for the TX. as a one poster stated most people do upgrade to a tram-tr50 or a sanken. we made these custom cables to adapt a lav wired for Lectro to senn.

so if you already have one or just want to rent a "higher end" lav, we have the cable option for that application, I think other vendors have those as well.

Good Luck

Frank

www.audiodepartment.tv

Thanks Frank! Yes, I been told and saw that for a couple hundred more I can add a but plug to the kit. The gear slut in me wants a lectrosonics of course. There are a couple 190-195s on Ebay for $500 in thr 588K range.

[Nicole Hankerson]

**Quick Question**

Sony UWP-V1

Anyone using this currently? I'm about to purchase some wireless mics and I have used the Sennheiser's before and they are some good mics but I had a ton of RF/drop out issues. My thing is since I don't have a way to test out the Sony's anybody want to give me a reason why this would be sufficient enough? After tons of searching I have heard nothing but good reviews and even heard people choose the Sony over Sennheiser. Care to add your two cents? I'll be ready to purchase next month.

Nicole

[mikewest]

Lectro's are the best for build quality!

Mike

[Petros Kolyvas]

Lectro's are the best for build quality!

Mike

Having used Lectros for every production but one (where we used a Senn G2), I wholeheartedly agree.

Having said that (CYE fans out there?) I picked up a G3 Senn ENG kit and am using it tomorrow. I decided that it was the best way to go for the time being, while we saved up for a Lectro kit. We occasionally need two wireless mics so the G3 would serve as a backup or rental.

[soundtrane]

nicole - lectro 411 with any transmitters you like/can afford. or the venue with any transmitters. i have over 250 days of shoot with mine, not a single problem. of course, i have the SIXPACK which is truly great - no powering complexities, no problems with using any kind of antenna for all six Rx.

-vin

[Nicole Hankerson]

@Vin so your saying just get the lectrol 411 receiver and pair it with any transmitter? Hmm never was told that or thought of that. Will definitely look into that suggestion.

Thanks

Nicole

p.s. By the way I used a Lectro 195 I believe on a set and I must admit it had the best range and was very clean. Just that that particular set you couldn't adjust the frequency at all so your stuck(unless I didn't know what I was doing/looking for to change it.)

[Jeff Babb]

Two questions. 

1) Sennheiser still has 700 MHz frequencies available, I presume for their non-US customers.  Or, is it that only part of the 700s are verboten in the US?

2) If my purpose is to record dialogue, what is the significance of the key jangle?

[Eric Toline]

Two questions. 

1) Sennheiser still has 700 MHz frequencies available, I presume for their non-US customers.  Or, is it that only part of the 700s are verboten in the US?

2) If my purpose is to record dialogue, what is the significance of the key jangle?

A: 1. Yes

A: 2. Supposedly the key jangle test will allow you to judge how high frequency sounds are handled i.e. distortion, sometimes known as HF splash. by the mic and or the wireless system.

Eric

[Jeff Babb]

As far as frequency agility goes.  I worked on a live stage play that was taped for television.  Working for the mixer, I coordinated 14 wireless mics (all G2s).  11 on talent and 3 camera hops.  Everything was great until the audience arrived with all their electronics.  Also, the police had been hired to provide security and parking enforcement.  When they arrived it added another RF complication.  After what seemed like hours (15 minutes), I was able identify and reassign frequencies.  There were a couple RF hits during the night, fortunately they were off dialogue. 

One of the stars of the show un-muted her mic to go to the head.  Only to mute it as she rushed to the stage.  That's another story.

G2 v. 195.  No contest.

[Jeff Babb]

A: 2. Supposedly the key jangle test will allow you to judge how high frequency sounds are handled i.e. distortion, sometimes known as HF splash. by the mic and or the wireless system.

Eric

So when we say HF are we talking about a female voice or dog whistle?  What's the practical application of this test other than the gee-whiz factor?  If there is an HF event (i.e. door squeak, police whistle, key jangle, pen click) over dialogue then more than likely the take was "bad for sound" no matter how well the system handled it.  I suppose, if the HF is outside the audible limits and causes distortion then that might be a problem.  But how often is this an issue?

[Jeff Wexler]

So when we say HF are we talking about a female voice or dog whistle?  What's the practical application of this test other than the gee-whiz factor?

The so-called "key jangle" test reveals a lot of things about the performance of the whole wireless system. It is a little less significant now with a Zaxcom (pure digital) set but still definitely something to try with any and all of the wireless units from other manufacturers. What the jangling of keys produces is a lot of percussive high frequency that can really mess up the proper transmission of all audio, including of course all the stuff we want to record, not just the dog whistles. You are right in saying that if you have to record a dialog scene with your speaker jangling their keys in front of the mic, it probably isn't going to work no matter what. So, the jangling of keys helps judge, quickly, how well the system deals with high frequencies, sharp spikes, harmonics, etc., all which are a factor in recording the human voice (male or female).

Someone who knows a lot more about this, technically, may come up with an answer that is more specific, but I feel that it is a valid test.

-  Jeff Wexler

[Eric Toline]

So when we say HF are we talking about a female voice or dog whistle?  What's the practical application of this test other than the gee-whiz factor?  If there is an HF event (i.e. door squeak, police whistle, key jangle, pen click) over dialogue then more than likely the take was "bad for sound" no matter how well the system handled it.   I suppose, if the HF is outside the audible limits and causes distortion then that might be a problem. 

"But how often is this an issue?"

In my experience, rarely. The problem is most often caused by the speech problems of the "talent" such as lisping especially on words with "sss" or whistling sounds through the teeth that acentuate an "S' sound. Sometimes turning the lav up side down (if you're using a top address mic like a Sanken cos11, etc) will help to de-emphasize the problem.

If you ever watch the BBC news broadcast on a PBS station you see that all their on air talent have their lavs up side down. This also prevents "P pops" and breath blasts into the capsule. Doesn't seem to affect the HF response either.

Eric

[studiomprd]

" @Vin so your saying just get the lectrol 411 receiver and pair it with any transmitter "

that is any compatible Lectrosonics transmitter. (sorry, the 195 is not!)

Lectrosonics has a number of compatibility modes for several series of their own equipment, and a couple for limited compatibility with other brands...

OK, those who don't want to see this, move on to the next post, cause here's  Johnny!!!

there is tons of information available on the Lectro web site, including useful FAQ's; Lectro also has their own discussion forum, email and, telephones (toll free in the USA!).

[studiomprd]

"Sennheiser still has 700 MHz frequencies available, I presume for their non-US customers.  Or, is it that only part of the 700s are verboten in the US?  "

someone answered "yes" and that is correct!

there are differing frequency allocations in different countries.

and, BTW, the FCC has still (Nov 24, 2009) not ruled that wireless microphones cannot be used in the 700 MHz band, nor is there any date set for such prohibition!

As to the "key test": it is not about high frequencies, this test is about transients! and the results are mostly about the companders being used...

and for accurate information, my friend Johnny has his usual advice....

[Jeff Babb]

So, the jangling of keys helps judge, quickly, how well the system deals with high frequencies, sharp spikes, harmonics, etc., all which are a factor in recording the human voice (male or female).

I can agree that it may be a good test for high frequencies and spikes.  But how high of a frequency are we going to encounter within the harmonics of dialogue.  8K, 10K, 12K?  Where is the low end of a key jangle?  15K?  It seems like an nice quicky engineering test.  Practical for our purposes?  I have doubts.  But then I'm no engineer.  How does the Lectro jangle test fare against other high end systems like Zaxcom?  If Lectro handles keys better than Zaxcom do we dismiss Zaxcom as not as good?  Or vice versa? 

[Jeff Babb]

BTW, the FCC has still (Nov 24, 2009) not ruled that wireless microphones cannot be used in the 700 MHz band, nor is there any date set for such prohibition!

Good to know.  Thanks.

[jason porter]

I find the "key test" relevant because RF mics are not always used to record voice only.

[soundtrane]

Well, I'm not Johnny, and neither am I tall dark and handsome, so I dont get to feature on a Mills & Boon cover. Heh.

However, here it is - from the lectrosonics FAQ about the keytest.

http://www.lectrosonics.com/faq/faq1byref.php?id=34

Nicole - by ANY transmitter i obviously meant any Lectro tx. LMa, UM, SM, MM - they're all priced differently. ALL of them will work with a UCR411a Rx. in My current kit - I have 2 x LM, 2 x UM, 1 x UMa and 1 x UH.

-vin

PS: very quickly (i'm rushing out of the house...) - the zaxcom Tx specs say 20Hz - 16 kHz while the lectro 400 says 32Hz - 20kHz and the Audio Ltd 2040 Tx is 50Hz to 18kHz... the FAQ says the peak energy of the key jangle is 30kHz.

[studiomprd]

" Practical for our purposes?  I have doubts "

practical for any purpose?? it is a test, and interpreting the results in relation to a specific individual's needs is a bit subjective.

It does show the compander's performance in an extreme situation, so it may be relevant, but after I compare two different wireless systems for my students on dialog, and they find them both acceptable quality, I let them hear the keys over each system, where they instantly recognize the quality difference.  My point to them is that there is a reason for the huge price difference between the systems, but for their projects' dialog, the differences are pretty negligible.