Sound Devices CL-12 with Scorpio: are the bugs from 6XX series recorders resolved ?

[Martin Lonek]

I had a few but always very annoying issues with my CL-12 connected with 688. It had a low power issues,  firmware update requests, it was slowing down my Wingman to unbearable speeds.

Is some of you using the CL-12 with Scorpio ? Do these troubles remain or was it resolved ? Many thanks for any feedback.

[PMC]

I hope to find a CL-12 to rent and pair with my 664 for a movie in January. I have not used one before. I am having difficulty finding one. The usual suspects have sold theirs. 

 

It is my understanding that a dedicated power source is a good idea instead of relying on the USB comm cable to supply enough current. Are you using external pwr?

[EnotsMedia]

I can’t speak for the Scorpio, but ive been using the CL12 w/ zero issues for over a year with my 833.  Simple USB- USB connection- no external power needed (when using 8 series). I DEFINITELY struggled with the issues you described when using my CL 12 w/ my 664. Constant battle….I’d assume they are the same with the 688. 

[BAB414]

Lose the wingman. Causes more problems than its worth.

[Martin Lonek]

On 10/15/2023 at 12:02 AM, PMC said:

I hope to find a CL-12 to rent and pair with my 664 for a movie in January. I have not used one before. I am having difficulty finding one. The usual suspects have sold theirs. 

 

It is my understanding that a dedicated power source is a good idea instead of relying on the USB comm cable to supply enough current. Are you using external pwr?

Hi PMC, Im using a powerbank to get more power for my CL-12. A slim 10Ah unit will serve you for multiple days. I had no problem using it with my 664 before, you only need to know that 664 doesn´t support EQ section of CL-12. Not a big deal. Yes, CL-12 is like a holy grail nowadays, almost impossible to buy. Units on ebay are sold for almost double the price it costed new.

On 10/15/2023 at 1:25 AM, EnotsMedia said:

I can’t speak for the Scorpio, but ive been using the CL12 w/ zero issues for over a year with my 833.  Simple USB- USB connection- no external power needed (when using 8 series). I DEFINITELY struggled with the issues you described when using my CL 12 w/ my 664. Constant battle….I’d assume they are the same with the 688. 

Thank you Jeremy ! This is what i needed to know.

[OB1]

I had issues with the CL12 on my 664 but it seemed to occur more frequently when the wingman was running. So I think there's some credence to @BAB414 comment. I did not have many issues running all 3 on my 688. It wasn't completely void of issues, it did lock up a couple times but for the length of time of running that combo I can count those issues on one hand.

[Mungo]

On 10/15/2023 at 1:25 AM, EnotsMedia said:

I can’t speak for the Scorpio, but ive been using the CL12 w/ zero issues for over a year with my 833.  Simple USB- USB connection- no external power needed (when using 8 series). I DEFINITELY struggled with the issues you described when using my CL 12 w/ my 664. Constant battle….I’d assume they are the same with the 688. 

 

+1

 

flawlessly with 833 and SD Remote on the iPad.

issues with 664/633 and Wingman.

 

In both cases the app crashes occasionally, but that's a minor problem cause that does not effects the recording. Software starts again by itself immediately.

 

 

[Philip Perkins]

Wingman and 664=NG. 

[Derek H]

On 10/17/2023 at 5:09 PM, Philip Perkins said:

Wingman and 664=NG. 

Has worked fine for me. 
 

I haven’t been able to crack the code with the 664 and the CL12…  mostly it works but the scenario is that if you power cycle in the wrong order it will start throwing those stupid errors and firmware update nonsense. It’s insane. 

[Philip Perkins]

Wingman and 664, far too unreliable for me to use on a job--much too fussy.

 

[IronFilm]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:02 AM, PMC said:

I hope to find a CL-12 to rent and pair with my 664 for a movie in January. I have not used one before. I am having difficulty finding one. The usual suspects have sold theirs. 

Depending on the length of the movie, you might want to run the math on the rental costs (or buying... if you can't find one to rent) of a CL12 for a whole movie vs selling the 664 and getting a Sound Devices 833 and any of the many (& very affordable) options the 8 Series has for control surfaces. 

 

The total costs difference is likely to be fairly marginal, and the 833 in my mind is going to largely be overall an upgrade. You can get more  slightly more channels in total (up to "14" ISOs vs the 12 of a 664), and all the many new features of the 8 Series!

 

You have less big faders, but that's somewhat of a nonissue I think thanks to many great accessories such as from iddqd & Location Sound London &  SoundReal (and many more, growing all the time: https://www.sounddevices.com/category/product-information/3rd-party-solutions/ ) then having direct physical control over your mixer/recorder is even easier with the 8 Series than the 6 Series, even when you're not using the the tablet/phone app or a bigger control surface such as the CL12/CL16/etc 

 

Oh, and also the 833 will have a few less outputs, no 10 pin connectors for instance. (but the 6 independent channels of outputs the 833 has is probably enough for most needs?)

[Philip Perkins]

And no ability to cascade onto the mix bus (Link i/o).

 

 

[PMC]

Thanks for the recommendation, IronFilm.

 

The CL-12 rental quotes I got from two different houses this spring were very affordable. About $400/week. But now I am told each company has sold their's. The Canadian branch of one of the rental houses says they shouldn't have sold their's. They continue to get rental calls for it frequently.

I frequently send tethered sound to multiple cams. I would miss the 10 pin snakes.

With returns.

[Phillip C Dent]

On 10/19/2023 at 1:56 PM, Philip Perkins said:

Wingman and 664, far too unreliable for me to use on a job--much too fussy.

 

+1

I used the Wingman once with my 664 and some very weird issues popped up. Don’t know if it was the culprit, but I’m not willing to chance it.   Reading this makes me believe that there are some gremlins with that pairing.

[IronFilm]

9 hours ago, PMC said:

The CL-12 rental quotes I got from two different houses this spring were very affordable. About $400/week. But now I am told each company has sold their's. The Canadian branch of one of the rental houses says they shouldn't have sold their's. They continue to get rental calls for it frequently.

Understandable! It's become so very popular and in high demand, as it's compatible with all of the 8 Series as well as the 6 Series. 

I guess the issue is that the only currently made purpose built control surface for the 8 Series by Sound Devices is the CL16. Which is overkill (or overpriced) for most people. 

 

Of course there are a wonderful range of third party control surfaces for the 8 Series! But they're often missing a little "something" with their feel, vs the likes of a CL9/CL12/CL16. Maybe Sound Devices needs to make an "affordable" modern CL9mk2 (for the 8 Series) as a cheaper alternative to their CL16 while also being a more premium feel alternative to the third party offerings? That might be a suitable replacement for the CL12 being used with the 8 Series, and lower back down the current high demand for the CL12. 

 

 

9 hours ago, PMC said:

I frequently send tethered sound to multiple cams. I would miss the 10 pin snakes.

With returns.

Fair enough! I guess you could make up custom ends for your snakes to work with your new 833. 

But wouldn't really be the same as using the 10pin ends, and a Sound Devices Scorpio (which has those) would be a much more expensive investment! 

 

My thoughts if I was in your shoes, needing to stick with the 664, but can't find a CL12, is that I'd be looking around for an old school analog mixing board? Specifically, I'd be looking for the PSC Solice Mini (if 8 linear faders is sufficient for your needs): 

https://professionalsound.com/specs/solicemini.html

https://www.professionalsound.com/manuals/Solice Mini Owner's Manual.pdf

https://www.trewaudio.com/reviews/pscs-solice-mini-mixer/ 

As for a fully featured analog board it's quite compact / lightweight , also is quite affordably priced (relatively speaking). 

 

Rodolfo Piedras had late last year a PSC Solice Mini for CAD$2K (US$1.5K) for sale, message him perhaps to see if it's still available?? (probably gone already. But at only US$1.5K, it's comparable to what a rental of a CL12 would cost you! Plus you can always resell it afterwards to recoup costs. As this is typical pricing I'd say for it secondhand) 

 

Or just ask around, to see if anybody has a PSC Solice Mini they'd like to get rid of. 

 

Otherwise, you're looking instead at a Cooper / Sonosax / etc as your analog mixers, with linear faders. But those tend to be heavier/bulkier than a PSC Solice Mini or a Sound Devices CL12 is, and it would likely be more pricey too than buying a Solice Mini or renting a CL12. 

 

Perhaps the final option to consider, if you haven't already, is to get your hands on the Sound Devices CL6? (if you don't already own it) Is try to get your hands on a Sound Devices CL6? Gives you six extra big faders. Of course, mixing on rotary faders vs nice linear faders isn't ideal! But would be better than nothing at all, definitely worth considering as a last resort. 

[Phillip C Dent]

12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Perhaps the final option to consider, if you haven't already, is to get your hands on the Sound Devices CL6? (if you don't already own it) Is try to get your hands on a Sound Devices CL6?

One more low budget option is to use a 552 utilizing the direct outs and the mix in/mix out cable. It will give you 5 more inputs, full sized rotary faders and stereo mix outputs, as well as a stereo record with TC.

 

I picked up a 552 locally for $500 and it worked for me.

 

[PMC]

IronFilm,

Thanks for your ideas. I will look into the PSC mini.

 

Philip,

Good price on the SD552. I have used the direct outs of my SD442 and used that for mic preamps and 7-10 inputs on the SD664 before.

 

My goal is to find a reasonably priced fader/control surface for the mixer I have now. I will rarely use this control surface as I mostly mix for commercials, docs and scripted reality with the SD664 needing to be around my neck half the time.

 

Again, thanks for the recommendations. 

[Tim Norris]

On 10/20/2023 at 3:05 PM, PMC said:

I frequently send tethered sound to multiple cams. I would miss the 10 pin snakes.

With returns

 

Though expensive, my foolish logic demanded a Scorpio as an upgrade to my 688.

 

Cheers,

Tim

[PMC]

I would love a Scorpio but would never realize a proper ROI in my Midwest market.

[Philip Perkins]

The 664+552 is a nice combo if you set it up right (prefade iso outs, link i/o mix buses).  But no linear faders like CL12.  CL6 worked well but you had to keep in mind the way that the operation of the 2nd group of 6 channels differed from the operation of the 664's chan 1-6.  OK but annoying.  In my later life I really missed having mic pres on Ch 7-12, hence the 552 (+a 12th outboard pre when needed) vs the CL6 which is line level input only.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, PMC said:

IronFilm,

Thanks for your ideas. I will look into the PSC mini.

You're welcome, keep us updated with what you end up doing! Especially if it a some other different path. 

I think there will be a lot of people who have either newly acquired a 6 Series or are sticking with their 6 Series long term like you are, and are looking for other solutions than the increasingly rare CL12. 

[Martin Lonek]

On 10/21/2023 at 8:11 PM, Phillip C Dent said:

One more low budget option is to use a 552 utilizing the direct outs and the mix in/mix out cable. It will give you 5 more inputs, full sized rotary faders and stereo mix outputs, as well as a stereo record with TC.

 

I picked up a 552 locally for $500 and it worked for me.

 

This is a great low budget solution. Connecting the direct outs of the 552 to inputs 7-12 of the 664 makes this a great 12- input full fader control setup.

[PMC]

Thanks everyone for your input. I have decided to go the 522 route. There are plenty of them on ebay. More versatile than a CL6 and far less expensive than CL16 and outboard analog mixers. A CL12 at $1,000 would be ideal but that isn't going to happen.

[IronFilm]

On 10/31/2023 at 4:03 AM, PMC said:

A CL12 at $1,000 would be ideal but that isn't going to happen.

I think that might never happen. 

Maybe not even ten years from now, when the 6 Series is even less popular (as we'll also have had ten years of inflation! $1K won't go far). 

Could only happen if someone reverse engineers the communication protocol of the CL12 so third party control surfaces can be used with the 6 Series instead.