Tony Johnson Posted August 17, 2011 Report Share Posted August 17, 2011 does anyone know how many millisec the live audio feed to the video village needs to be delayed when shooting with the epic? Matthias Hi Matthias , 220 millisec is the delay we use from me to vid split for the red epic . On the subject of fan speed and noise . We have the very latest build and the Epic now has a "fan management system" in it which means the cams stay on auto and when rolling the fan speed is 5% lower than it was - but - it also means if the cam gets too hot , which happens all the time , the fans increase in speed . The good thing about this is that they are so loud that the actors and Director etc all stop and call cut . the idea behind this new system is that instead of the fans being at 100% when not rolling and then going to 25% when rolling the cams now just set themselves according the temp of the cameras at the time . What is really killing us is the "rolling resets" for an entire 250gig card . I believe there is a complete new build/ camera due soon which will have much better "fan management systems" in place . I had my first scene the other day where cam fan noise made for guide track , anything very close to actors and low level dial is an issue for the current Epic build . Regards Tony Johnson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I suppose the 3D/5K/48fps camera in such a small footprint trumps any issues with fan noise. With an epic budget, as well as an Epic camera, they clearly have the time and budget to fix or replace any dialog they choose. The problem will be indie dramas, with critical performances and no budget, who decide they "need" to shoot on the Epic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I suppose the 3D/5K/48fps camera in such a small footprint trumps any issues with fan noise. With an epic budget, as well as an Epic camera, they clearly have the time and budget to fix or replace any dialog they choose. The problem will be indie dramas, with critical performances and no budget, who decide they "need" to shoot on the Epic. Yes absolutely the Epic is not a sound camera in it's current form and should not be refered to as such . We debate these issues you raise on set all the time . Interestingly we have had a few other technicians visiting set for upcoming movies , we tell them all the pitfalls and problems and so far they have all gone with the Epic , the reason ? Visual fx , they love the 5k sensor and when everything else is weighed up that is the deal breaker . Maybe the next generation Epic xx will be silent there is rumor of a much bigger heat sinc , we will see . Basically when the camera is 2.5 feet or less from an actor the fans are a huge issue . I try and work with what we have and I have to say so far there is very little ADR for the Cam fans but that does not change the fact it is not a sound camera . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Yes absolutely the Epic is not a sound camera in it's current form and should not be refered to as such. We debate these issues you raise on set all the time. Interestingly we have had a few other technicians visiting set for upcoming movies, we tell them all the pitfalls and problems and so far they have all gone with the Epic, the reason ? Visual fx, they love the 5k sensor and when everything else is weighed up that is the deal breaker. Funny, all the VFX people I know are still working in 2K. There's an interesting discussion of the Red vs. the Alexa right now on the Telecine Internet Group (for colorist and post discussions), and the general opinion is that Alexa shoots are on the upswing and that the Arri has greater exposure range. Me personally, I think both cameras can make good pictures in the right hands, but resolution alone is not the most important factor, and also that the Alexa is much simpler and more straightforward in post. The Alexa has no issues with the fan that I've heard. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Funny, all the VFX people I know are still working in 2K --Marc W. Yes but with a 5k picture they can manipulate the original frame to a higher degree retrieving small detail from it while maintaining good resolution . They like the extra pixels beyond the 2K they use . I have heard the Alexa is a fine camera . I wish we had them . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 The first job I did with the Alexa I carefully printed out the relevant audio sections from the manual in prep for the next day. The next morning I left the instructions on the front seat of the Van parked several blocks away. I managed to jam the Alexa with Time Code and feed audio into the camera without referencing the manual. I was stunned! How easy was that for the first time using this camera. I think the Alexa is light years ahead of the RED. Today, shooting with two RED cameras I heard the Director cursing the RED saying something like "Every time a battery goes down it's like we lose 15 minutes...." I think in time the Alexa will become the camera of choice, I know if I have any say in what camera the production was going to hire, I would push for Alexa. The Alexa is a superior product to the RED in my opinion and better suited to sync sound shoots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 "so far there is very little ADR for the Cam fans " But there is a long way to go before release... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 In my LA based commercial world it is still 60/40 film. The 40% digital is all Alexa. Great system. Camera likes them and I do as well concerning sound. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 We use Alexa too. Great system. But a two Alexa 3D rig would be huge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Daddyo Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I posted this before but here it is again. I think it is around 80lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 Yes but with a 5k picture they can manipulate the original frame to a higher degree retrieving small detail from it while maintaining good resolution . They like the extra pixels beyond the 2K they use. There are pixels... and then there are pixels. The "5K" specs on the Red Epic are dodgy when you bear in mind that this number is from the single chip before Bayer filtering. The reality is, once you derive Red, Green, and Blue from the chip, you have to divide the number by 3 -- meaning, it's really just a 1.6K chip (give or take). It's just a numbers game. Great movies have and can be shot with all kinds of digital cameras. I just saw a screening of Captain America the other day, and thought most of it looked terrific -- and a large part of it was shot with the old Panavision Genesis (which is at least 6-7 years old), just straight HD. Don't overlook the tremendous amount of processing that goes on behind the scenes that uprezzes footage to 4K prior to release. Disclaimer: I occasionally work for the LA-based firm that did this kind of digital processing work on Avatar (Sony cameras) and Social Network (Red One), among dozens of others. Both were very fine-looking films and deserved their success and awards. I agree with Crew that the Arri Alexa seems to be making big gains, at least among the DPs I know in LA. Having said that, I also believe the Red Epic can make beautiful pictures in the right hands, but I think it's more problematic in post (at the moment). --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 TJ wrote: >>220 millisec is the delay we use from me to vid split for the red epic.<< TJ Can you tell me how you acheive this delay please. Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 TJ wrote: >>220 millisec is the delay we use from me to vid split for the red epic.<< TJ Can you tell me how you acheive this delay please. Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. We use a digital delay on the video village cart . I send analogue audio to vid which then goes through an AtoD (as Qtake only accepts digital sound) and then through a digital delay box ( make escapes me but can find out if u need it) the box has a bunch of dip switches on it and with trial and error we found the magic number . We had someone stand in front of camera and talk while we changed the settings until we achieved sinc . Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Most of the A/D's I've used don't add more than about 1-2ms delay, at worst. I find the cameras are the worst offenders, and you typically have to delay the audio in order to match the video delay. In situations where HD video is being converted in real-time to SD (as with the Evertz boxes) delays of at least 5 video frames (165ms) are not unusual. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Posted August 23, 2011 Report Share Posted August 23, 2011 I just spent some of this afternoon at the Red Europe HQ at Pinewood Studios. Alan Piper who runs the show there is an old pal, and a very likeable and helpful chap. We had a look at a Red Epic M (M denotes that they are beta testers, or 1st generation of production cameras). Next week they will be taking delivery of the first Red Epic X cameras, and eventually all the M's will be upgraded to be X's. Apparently the X models have more cooling stuff inside (heatsinks etc...) and might be less reliant on the fan. An interesting aside that I learned was/is that the chip/camera likes to work at 50 degrees. This has an implication, which is that if we come up with a way of working the fan that runs the fan at 100% when we are not shooting or rehearsing, it may well cool the camera down below the 50 degrees that they say is their optimum, so we should be aware of that. I also noticed that the camera heats up and cools down very quickly, like the fan can cool the camera by 10 degrees in about 3 or 4 minutes. At 100% the fan, as reprted, is like a hairdrier, and would drive any of us mad. At 50% the fan is probably acceptable for ext shots, so long as there is a bit ofurban BG noise around, but it wouldn't work for interiors methinks. At 35% I expect the camera would work for most exteriors, unless your mic was right next to the camera. For interiors it would probably be alright in most situations, other than small rooms, or very quiet places, or where the mics are right next to the camera. If we could get a 20% or maybe 25% setting then that will obviously be that much better - I expect it could work in most situations. They are working on that and if the camera can work for decent amounts of time with lower fan settings. Alan told me that he has requested a 'rehearsal' feature, where we could assign a function button that would turn the fan to minimum for a period of time that hopefully we can set in the software, say 1 or 2 or 3 minutes. This would be long enough to do a rehearsal, and if the fan kicked back in whilst still reheasing I guess the camera folks could hit the button again. Alan tells me that when in record, and assuming you are in manual fan setting mode, not auto, the fan WILL NOT kick in whilst recording. Apparently the camera will complain lots that if and when it is getting hot, and eventually drop out of record, but it wll not switch the fan back on, or let it get faster, unless it is in auto mode. He tells me that they have not yet managed to make an Epic overheat!! There are manual fan settings for both standby and record modes, and the fan speeds are adjustable for each separately. The minimum on the software build (latest I was told) was 35% - you can enter the number for 25%, but it will set itsself to 35%, that is the minimum. In the meantime, whilst we wait for our rehearsal mode, there is a kind of workaround that will win us a bit more quietness at times when we'd like the fans on slow. You can assign any of the function buttons to toggle between auto fan mode and manual. If you then set the manual settings for standby = 35%, record = 35%, then by hitting the function button you can toggle between minimum fan speed, and auto. Be aware that if you leave the fans at 35% the camera does start to heat up fairly quickly. So - this function button can effectively be regarded as the rehearsal/take button. Now we need to train the camera folks to hit the function button at the start of a rehersal, or before a take!!! Its not ideal, but it is a way, and it is already there!!! Be aware that Red have orders for hundreds of these cameras, so we are going to see them lots at work in the future!!! More news when I get it. Hoping that this helps, Simon B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted August 24, 2011 Report Share Posted August 24, 2011 " Red have orders for hundreds of these cameras " it might be interesting to know the types of customers, and I guess more Epic's will go to individual owner/shooter types than Arri Alexia's, which are also beintg delivered in the hundreds, though mostly to more corporate type customers like rental houses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenan925 Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 So after my recent shoot with the epic, I have a few notes and things to watch out for. The fan settings seem to reset every time the battery is disconnected. The settings stayed if the camera was power cycled and the battery stayed connected, but every time the battery was changed we would have to re set the fan settings. Since the default setting is "Auto", it is a good idea to remind camera department to reset the fan settings to an agreed setting after every battery change. The minimum fan speed I could set was 20%, which was still noisy, but depending on the situation could be ok. Shot on long lenses it was no problem, but doing a car scene with the camera in the drivers seat, and the talent walking up to the drivers window and talking to camera, POV style, the fan noise was quite noticable. This also happened to be the first scene where I found out the fan settings reset on losing power. Fan tone! I attached a lockit box to the camera, so I can't comment on the internal TC generator. the sync input connector on the "brain" is a lemo 4 pin connection. Camera department had a 3d sync cable which has 3 BNC connectors on it. yellow is timecode. One nice thing about the display on the epic over the red is that the tc being displayed seems to actually be in real time without the 1 second or so delay that I've noticed on the red, which makes checking sync easier. I have to admit I can't wait to see the HDR footage. If it gives the dynamic range they say (something around 8 stops) I'm pretty excited to check it out. Kelsey So Kelsey or anyone, did the camera crew have the TC cable with the 4 pin lemo? I haven't seen any 4 pin lemo cables for sale yet. Keenan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted October 24, 2011 Report Share Posted October 24, 2011 The Epic just has a multipin connector with a break out, cable or an acc. box. The Epics I've used had BNCs for TC on the end of the breakout. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keenan925 Posted October 26, 2011 Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 I just talked with the 1st AC and they don't have that cable. Oh well, I may just treat it like an old film camera and use a clapper. Thanks Phil Keenan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted October 26, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2011 On my shoots the epic owner had the 3d cable, which has timecode and genlock. Cheers K http://wanderingear.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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