cstauffer Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I am wondering if anyone else deals with the following problem.This might be a little confusing. I hope I explain it well... I use wireless boom with Lectro Tx plug ons with Neumann 81, Sanken CS3e and Neumann KM140 and 150s. I also recently tried the Schoeps CMC641. Beautiful mic. Can't believe I waited this long to try one. Now I have to spend more money...anyway... I have SMa Txs with COS-11s on actors with 411 receivers. So that the Boom, and the wires on actors, stay in the correct phase with one another, you have to have the phase on the receiver of the Boom opposite to the phase of the receivers that is pulling in the actors lav's audio. Hope that made sense. Now that works only for the Neumann 81, and CS3e. When you put on the Neumann KM150, 140 and the Schoeps, which, coincidently, are all colette mics where you can detach the capsule, The phase goes the other way compared to the 81 and CS3e. So to fix it you have to flick the phase switch on your mix board to make it all happy. Now, in the heat of battle, if you forget to flick the phase switch, it throws a monkey wrench into things for Post, and they basically hate you... Guess I am wondering why things can't all play nicely together, though I probably know the answer to that, but does anyone else deal with, or even know about this whole situation, and what have been your experiences? or are there a lot of mixers sending in out of phase Boom with lav situations? It seems going to a balanced plug on system (Lectro is unbalanced) like the Zaxcom, or Sennheisers, might correct all that. Though I have yet to test that out fully. CRAIG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigF Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 make life easy on youself have pins 2 & 3 swaped on your 81 and CS3e and put a P-Touch lable on hte mic(s) to denote it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I'd recommend having a little private "phase party" in your shop, with your tools ready and your soldering iron hot. Go through your stuff and make it all work for you all the time, so you don't have to think about it any more. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Guess I am wondering why things can't all play nicely together, though I probably know the answer to that, but does anyone else deal with, or even know about this whole situation, and what have been your experiences? or are there a lot of mixers sending in out of phase Boom with lav situations? It seems going to a balanced plug on system (Lectro is unbalanced) like the Zaxcom, or Sennheisers, might correct all that. Though I have yet to test that out fully. CRAIG I don't know the answer (electrically) but I can certainly verify that you are not alone in facing this phase dilemma. I have had to check phase problems amongst all my microphone setups, hard wired and wireless, and often discover very peculiar things that really can only be corrected by phase reversal switch and knowing when to use it. It is a huge burden to remember that if I am using a hardwired Schoeps on the fishpole it will be out of phase with the actor that has a wireless transmitter with a Sanken COS-11 but IN phase with the actor who has a DPA lav (just a demonstrative example, not necessarily actually the case). Or, if Don decides he needs to go wireless for the Schoeps, I have to remember that it will now be in phase, or out of phase, with some other mic I may be using in the scene. It would be great if everything would just work together but it doesn't seem to be the case. Also, I'm not sure that the balanced input on Zaxcom transmitters will solve the overall problem when using a mixture of lavs into wireless transmitters (2 wire lavs, 3 wire lavs, etc.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I've only seen one manufacturer who usefully provide a phase reverse switch on transmitters, that's the Micron 700 series http://www.micronwireless.co.uk/WirelessPerfection/Products/Default.aspx?productrange=Micron700 So it can be done and thought of as necessary and useful..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Positive input to pin 2 on plug-on Lectros (XLR) transmitters gives a positive output on pin 2 of the receiver XLR output. This is the industry standard, balanced or unbalanced. Positive input on all Lectro beltpacks gives the same pin 2 positive output. Most lavalieres produce a positive output with a pressure pulse at the diaphragm. The COS-11 2 wire setup is an exception as it is reversed compared to the 3 wire hookup. This is not a fault of Sanken but a required servo wiring for Lectro. The polarity can be reversed in the menu to correct for this on Lectro systems. Best Regards, Larry F Lectro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I've only seen one manufacturer who usefully provide a phase reverse switch on transmitters, that's the Micron 700 series http://www.micronwireless.co.uk/WirelessPerfection/Products/Default.aspx?productrange=Micron700 So it can be done and thought of as necessary and useful..... As mentioned above, all newer Lectros (400 series) have a choice in the menu. LEF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Larry's suggestions for Lectro users are great and could certainly help alleviate the problem of trying to remember what works with what and be able to make that determination in the relative quiet and comfort of your shop. For those who may be using a mixture of lavs it is still a bit of a challenge and add to that the people who use a mixture of transmitters (from different companies) or the use of external power supplies (48 volt phantom power), it can get kind of hairy. It's all doable but does require what Philip Perkins suggested "having a little private "phase party" in your shop". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstauffer Posted January 11, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I have already had a private phase party in my garage. Unfortunately, I have determined there is no easy way to make everything work without thinking about it between all the different mics, and Txs and Rxs combinations. It would take too long to explain why, and be kinda boring. So take my word for it, I spent a long time trying to make it work. Though thank you for the suggestion Philip. Always appreciated. Larry...I do take full advantage of the phase reversal option in the 411 receivers to help correct some of my phase problems. The Sanken wiring thing explains some things for me too. Thanks. Jeff...It is good to know that I am not the only one that this affects, and drives crazy. Craig F...I do not think it is a good idea to go changing pins in the mic. In my mind they were put that way for a reason. Would think it might affect the signal going into the plug on Tx negatively, or maybe make it so it would not work at all. Might not get phantom power to mic because of that. Would, and have, done that further down the signal chain to fix problems in the past, but I do not like to do it if I can help it. Be good to hear from a Post Pro person on this. Do you guys see a lot of phase problems between Boom and Lav? CRAIG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 What works in your garage on Monday will change on set on Tuesday. Sometimes a switch won't fix the problem. That's why they call it mixing. You mix the mics... and the ones that don't play well together, you mix the s**t out of them...no mushy, soft fader movements - hard throws that you paint on the canvas of a neutral mic to take the curse off. It's hard to do when you don't have rehearsals. Experience will teach you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigF Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 pot a flip switch on your cable http://www.neutrik.us/zoolu-website/media/download/3825/Drawing+SM2-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 What works in your garage on Monday will change on set on Tuesday. Sometimes a switch won't fix the problem. That's why they call it mixing. You mix the mics... and the ones that don't play well together, you mix the s**t out of them...no mushy, soft fader movements - hard throws that you paint on the canvas of a neutral mic to take the curse off. It's hard to do when you don't have rehearsals. Experience will teach you. Mirror, I think you are confusing acoustic phase problems with electrical phase problems. Electrical phase problems (polarity as Larry describes positiver input yielding positive output). Electrical phase problems can be absolutely "solved" in your garage or your shop, though it may be, as cstauffer has said, a lengthy and tedious project (but accomplished with a lot less stress and anxiety as trying to sort it out on the set). Now, acoustic phasing issues on the day when mixing multiple microphones in the field, are things that do need to be dealt with one-on-one with the skill and understanding of the basic principles of mixing, generally using the best test instrument we have: our ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Mirror, I think you are confusing acoustic phase problems with electrical phase problems. Electrical phase problems (polarity as Larry describes positiver input yielding positive output). Electrical phase problems can be absolutely "solved" in your garage or your shop, though it may be, as cstauffer has said, a lengthy and tedious project (but accomplished with a lot less stress and anxiety as trying to sort it out on the set). Now, acoustic phasing issues on the day when mixing multiple microphones in the field, are things that do need to be dealt with one-on-one with the skill and understanding of the basic principles of mixing, generally using the best test instrument we have: our ears. That's what I get for skimming over the original post. I'll have to read the whole thread next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pindrop Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 As mentioned above, all newer Lectros (400 series) have a choice in the menu. LEF Interesting thanks Larry, is this a menu choice where the change of polarity can happen whilst the transmitter is live and transmitting and therefore it's possible to hear the change in real time, like a mechanical switch, when mixed with another mic.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I am wondering if anyone else deals with the following problem.This might be a little confusing. I hope I explain it well... I use wireless boom with Lectro Tx plug ons with Neumann 81, Sanken CS3e and Neumann KM140 and 150s. I also recently tried the Schoeps CMC641. Beautiful mic. Can't believe I waited this long to try one. Now I have to spend more money...anyway... I have SMa Txs with COS-11s on actors with 411 receivers. So that the Boom, and the wires on actors, stay in the correct phase with one another, you have to have the phase on the receiver of the Boom opposite to the phase of the receivers that is pulling in the actors lav's audio. Hope that made sense. Now that works only for the Neumann 81, and CS3e. When you put on the Neumann KM150, 140 and the Schoeps, which, coincidently, are all colette mics where you can detach the capsule, The phase goes the other way compared to the 81 and CS3e. So to fix it you have to flick the phase switch on your mix board to make it all happy. Now, in the heat of battle, if you forget to flick the phase switch, it throws a monkey wrench into things for Post, and they basically hate you... Guess I am wondering why things can't all play nicely together, though I probably know the answer to that, but does anyone else deal with, or even know about this whole situation, and what have been your experiences? or are there a lot of mixers sending in out of phase Boom with lav situations? It seems going to a balanced plug on system (Lectro is unbalanced) like the Zaxcom, or Sennheisers, might correct all that. Though I have yet to test that out fully. CRAIG My KMs, KMRs, and Schoepses all have pin 2 positive (as should be). Even the Oktavas and AKGs have. Makes me wonder if something's wrong with one of your mics (ie. pins already swapped)? I would not think that balanced/unbalanced plug-ons make a polarity difference, as long as the "unbalanced" signal is taken from pin 2. Swapping pins 2 and 3 does not produce phantom issues, as P48 goes through both pins equally. Agree that in the heat of the battle one should not need to worry about polarity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al mcguire Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I've seen old Schoeps cmc 4's that were pin 3 hot, it was called the Shure Standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlowsound Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Mirror, I think you are confusing acoustic phase problems with electrical phase problems. Electrical phase problems (polarity as Larry describes positiver input yielding positive output). Electrical phase problems can be absolutely "solved" in your garage or your shop, though it may be, as cstauffer has said, a lengthy and tedious project (but accomplished with a lot less stress and anxiety as trying to sort it out on the set). Now, acoustic phasing issues on the day when mixing multiple microphones in the field, are things that do need to be dealt with one-on-one with the skill and understanding of the basic principles of mixing, generally using the best test instrument we have: our ears. Guys I think you are talking the same talk and using inaccurate terminology. The relationship of phase in the mics would depend on the position of each mic on the performers, and the distance between performers and mics. Phase deals with time. Polarity it is dealing with the sine wave of the electrical signal. Polarity is an electrical term determining the positive and negative sides of a balanced electrical signal while phase is a frequency specific relationship of time. I have attended too many Meyer Sound seminars. For the sake of clarification,without sounding like a wise guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 "Guys I think you are talking the same talk and using inaccurate terminology. The relationship of phase in the mics would depend on the position of each mic on the performers, and the distance between performers and mics. Phase deals with time. Polarity it is dealing with the sine wave of the electrical signal. Polarity is an electrical term determining the positive and negative sides of a balanced electrical signal while phase is a frequency specific relationship of time." harlowsound is absolutely right --- I slipped into the already well established (but incorrect) use of the word "phase". I thought I did a decent job of straightening things out by differentiating acoustic phase and electrical phase but it seems that it just further confuses things. In partial defense, the switch present on many mixing panel input is labeled "phase reverse" or "invert phase" but all it can do is change the POLARITY (electrically)? It is possible that the term "phase" could be used throughout this discussion while still serving to addressing the original poster's dilemma which was obviously a question about POLARITY (electrical, wiring) which will of course affect PHASE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harlowsound Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 This may save some of you time if you are testing a lot of equipment, a quick google search turned up these two devices http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/333371-REG/Galaxy_Audio_CPTS_Battery_Powered_Polarity_Test.html For those of you who would like to do it yourself http://www.recordingmag.com/resources/resourceDetail/325.html Hope it may help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 Not matter what, there will always be the possibility for phase inversions, if not for all the reasons mentioned above, or a phase switch left in the wrong position, a cable with pins 2&3 reversed will eventually find it's way into the mix. A good practice during morning prep is to put all your mics together with a hardwired mic of known proper phase, then bring them up one at a time. While there will be some noticeable latency phasing with digitally processed systems, none will be as dramatic as input that's 180 degrees out of phase. When you encounter one or more that's out of phase with the reference mic, either flip the switch or change the menu setting. Another possibility with some recorders, such as the Deva series, is that it's possible to flip the phase on each input and each track independently. Also, the prefader direct out on the Sonosax SXST is phase reversed from the post fader outputs. The Deva phase options are a very convenient way to deal with this, but it also can be a "gotcha" if switching to another mixer. There are countless ways that phase can become reversed, so the final answer must be: Listen, adapt, or go home. gt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryF Posted January 16, 2015 Report Share Posted January 16, 2015 To add to Glen's thoughtful post: When you put the mics together, match the levels closely so the difference between in and out of polarity will be the most noticeable possible. Also, listen to the low frequencies for making a determination. This keeps differing digital delays from entering the sound picture. With a typical 3 ms delay, at frequencies above 150 Hz you will have comb filter notches every 300 Hz, i.e., at 150, 450, 750, etc. Below 150 Hz, the comb filter effects are out of the picture and you can easily hear the bass suckout from polarity reversals. Of course, if both paths have a 3 ms delay, then this isn't a problem and you will hear suckout up into the midrange. This is also true for both paths with 0 ms delay, i.e., analog. Best Regards, Larry Fisher Lectrosonics Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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