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Sound Devices 888 (SD888) and expanding channels with Dante, thoughts?

B_Van_Deusen

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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Hi,

 

I invested in the SD888 earlier this year and so far loving it. I'm getting more aquianted with Dante and considering how I might use for future applications to expand my system that require more than 8 inputs.  The obvious route for expansion to me is the SL-2, and while thats the most streamline / compact / film applicable solution, I am curious about other devices that might buy me the extra channels and also give me more versatility (aka more universal mic/line inputs), while also saving me a bit of $$.

 

So far some of the most interesting options are:

 

RDL SF-XMN4 - 4 mic/line inputs, 48v ph, compact. For $750ish it seems like the right price for 4x high quality preamps with functionality. Can anyone speak to RDL's pre's / overall quality?

 

Neutrik NA2-IO-DLINE - 2x2 line I/O interface, compact. For $250 this is a cheaper option for a simple expantion of 2 channels. This seems cool if i just wanted to slap on a couple more line inputs, but not sure its worth the effort/money over just routing one of the returns into a recorded channel.

 

Q's: 

-Ever use either of these products?

-Any other options you know of? (Especially open to cheaper and/or lesser known products that provide good results)

-Does the ethernet port on the 888 provide PoE?

 

 

Thanks!

 

-Brett

 

 

**(I opted out of the scorpio because the majority of my work will never need that many channels, its the occational live situation that i might need to expand for. The SL-2 might still be the best overall option, just curious whats out there!)**

 

 

 

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Johnny Karlsson

Johnny Karlsson

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Depends on what you are trying to do exactly. If all you need is a couple extra line inputs, maybe check out the Audinate AVIO offerings. The true beauty of Dante is (IMHO) if you were to get a wireless receiver with Dante, such as a DSQD - then you'll have 4 channels on one single cat-6 cable instead of 4x XLR cables, with the bonus of freeing up four XLR inputs (mic-pre or line) on the 888.

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IronFilm

IronFilm

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How often do you need extra channels? 

The Sound Devices XL-AES is dirt cheap, it's what I use to get up to another extra 8 channels via AES. Especially if you already have AES outputs from your receivers. (but if not, an affordable/compact way I use is the AJA ADA4)

 

 

3 hours ago, Johnny Karlsson said:

Depends on what you are trying to do exactly. If all you need is a couple extra line inputs, maybe check out the Audinate AVIO offerings.

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1417858-REG/audinate_adp_dai_au_2x0_2_channel_dante_avio_analog.html

Yup, that's a good way for two more channels!

But also, OP refers to 8x channels, if they need just two more channels, then they could use the 3.5mm return on the 888. 
Then the Audinate if they need another 2x more, plus the XL-AES to gain 8x, and you're at 20 channels! Already gone far past the 16 channels max of the 888. (18x channels if you are recording 2x bus tracks)
 

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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16 hours ago, Johnny Karlsson said:

Depends on what you are trying to do exactly. If all you need is a couple extra line inputs, maybe check out the Audinate AVIO offerings. The true beauty of Dante is (IMHO) if you were to get a wireless receiver with Dante, such as a DSQD - then you'll have 4 channels on one single cat-6 cable instead of 4x XLR cables, with the bonus of freeing up four XLR inputs (mic-pre or line) on the 888.

Yes i just came across the AVIO products, very elegant solutions.  The  Neutrik NA2-IO-DLINE.   does squeeze the value of the input & output AVIO connectors into one unit which is kinda nice, not quite as elegant though.

 

 

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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12 hours ago, IronFilm said:

How often do you need extra channels? 

The Sound Devices XL-AES is dirt cheap, it's what I use to get up to another extra 8 channels via AES. Especially if you already have AES outputs from your receivers. (but if not, an affordable/compact way I use is the AJA ADA4)

 

 

 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1417858-REG/audinate_adp_dai_au_2x0_2_channel_dante_avio_analog.html

Yup, that's a good way for two more channels!

But also, OP refers to 8x channels, if they need just two more channels, then they could use the 3.5mm return on the 888. 
Then the Audinate if they need another 2x more, plus the XL-AES to gain 8x, and you're at 20 channels! Already gone far past the 16 channels max of the 888. (18x channels if you are recording 2x bus tracks)
 

Yes i did see the SD XL-AES, and not sure how to factor that in here because i don't have any recievers with AES currently.  Once you get the AJA ADA4 in there we're looking at around $700+ to get the 4in/4out line level.  So i'm not sure how that might fit, but worth considering for sure.

12 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

I use Neutrik NA2-IO-DLINE.  It has mostly just worked, no issues, ditto with the Audinate AVIO 2 in or 2 out adapters--all powered by the network.  But only 2 channels....

 

Can will the device power directly from the 888, or does it need the switch for PoE?

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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22 minutes ago, tourtelot said:

I do not believe the 888 has POE but there are small inline boxes that will do that.  Both the Neutrik and the Audinate Avio need POE.

 

D.

 

Yeah that makes sense, good to know.  I found this little PoE injector that could be powered by a BDS (i believe) -https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tycon-systems-inc/TP-DCDC-1248G/17047335

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IronFilm

IronFilm

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12 hours ago, B_Van_Deusen said:

Yes i did see the SD XL-AES, and not sure how to factor that in here because i don't have any recievers with AES currently. 

What receivers are you using currently?

12 hours ago, B_Van_Deusen said:

Once you get the AJA ADA4 in there we're looking at around $700+ to get the 4in/4out line level. 

You can get it easily secondhand, and save a fair amount. Both of my ADA4 units are from eBay

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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On 8/16/2023 at 3:24 PM, tourtelot said:

Plug and play.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Splitter-Compliant-Surveillance-5-5x2-1mm-PS5712TG/dp/B08HS4NT13/ref=sr_1_3?crid=19WXML4FZFUU&keywords=POE%2B12VDC&qid=1692213795&sprefix=poe%2B12vdc%2Caps%2C182&sr=8-3&th=1

 

You might need to change out the DC connector.

I came across this before, its technically labeled as "splitter" rather than "injector." It could theoretically work both ways but i'm unsure thats the case, can you speak to it being able to do the reverse of the intended function properly?

 

On 8/17/2023 at 2:36 AM, IronFilm said:

What receivers are you using currently?

You can get it easily secondhand, and save a fair amount. Both of my ADA4 units are from eBay

I have a Lectro SRb and 4x 411's.  For whatever reason I've never used AES (just never happened), but i see your point here that if i had this guy, when i rent additional wireless (that have an AES plate) i can route them directly into the back 9 channels of the 888, and use the AJA converter box if not.  This is worth considering for sure.

 

On 8/17/2023 at 6:55 AM, sciproductions said:

Personally I really like the solutions from Tascam:

MM-4D/IN-X - 4 Channels In, with switchable 48V using the app

https://tascam.com/us/product/mm-4d_in-x/top

Very elegant solution, can you speak to the quality of the pres on this?

 

On 8/18/2023 at 3:24 AM, Matt Radlauer said:

I have a Glennsound 4in 4out rackmount Dante box.. Paired with my Scorpio. It's nice to be able to remote that I/O depending on what the circumstances are. That box works over POE but also has 4pin and a NEMA plug..

Nice, also very elegant but I don't have any sort of rack and not sure if i'll go down that route right now, i've gone back and forth with cart setups but at the moment residing in the scrappy in/out of cars/cabs life.

 

On 8/16/2023 at 2:38 PM, B_Van_Deusen said:

I do not believe the 888 has POE but there are small inline boxes that will do that.  Both the Neutrik and the Audinate Avio need POE.

-----------------------------------------

 

Otherwise i'm working on figuring out how to power a managed switch with PoE from my BDS system (for many reasons, id like to power this from my bag if possible).  So far this is what i've come up with:

-This Netgear switch  matches the input specs of (edit: you can disable EEE on this switch):

-the output of this DC-DC converter which input specs qualify for:

-the output of the Remote audio BDS system

 

I'm not crazy about the chasis mount DC converter but couldn't fine another solution.  I also looked at several other PoE managed switches, but they had more obscure power reqs that i couldn't find an exact DC-DC converter match for. I will need to wire the correct connectors to it, and ideally wrap the lead terminals somehow.

 

If anyone has any thoughts about this i'm open... i know only a little bit about wiring/powering. 

One question: is that i found other switches with close power reqs like: 50-57v @ 1.1a (rather than 48v @ 1.25a), which results in pretty similar wattage.  While I know theres wiggle room with power sometimes, but i don't know exactly when, is this one of those times?

 


Best,

Brett

 

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Patrick Farrell

Patrick Farrell

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2 hours ago, B_Van_Deusen said:

I came across this before, its technically labeled as "splitter" rather than "injector." It could theoretically work both ways but i'm unsure thats the case, can you speak to it being able to do the reverse of the intended function properly?

That particular one has a network filter IC in it which could possibly get fried if you inject voltage into it. There are fully passive versions that work both ways but that still wouldn't help in your case because the device on the other end is expecting spec PoE power but would only receive the voltage of your battery. The injector you posted up above would work because it has a DC-DC converter built in to provide the proper voltage but you're limited to connecting just one device. If you want the flexibility of a switch in your bag, Gotham has this one that can be powered from your BDS. Sadly it's not gigabit but should be plenty fast for a few channels like the AVIO devices and similar.

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tourtelot

tourtelot

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Here is a Gigabit switch with POE.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-1000Mbps-Ethernet-Capacity-Universal/dp/B0C9C7JG3H/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=pEXwS&content-id=amzn1.sym.5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca%3Aamzn1.symc.e5c80209-769f-4ade-a325-2eaec14b8e0e&pf_rd_p=5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca&pf_rd_r=28AJZXVFHRNWD914A6P3&pd_rd_wg=VT0fe&pd_rd_r=f3504ebe-ae0b-4c6b-90b6-54fe35951c4c&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m&th=1

 

Two questions that I could not find answers to is 1) is POE "auto detect and deliver"  or always on, and, 2) is it able to have the "Green Ethernet" function disabled (Dante hates Green Ethernet).

 

But the price point and 12VDC powering might make it worth further exploration.

 

D.

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Johnny Karlsson

Johnny Karlsson

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35 minutes ago, tourtelot said:

Here is a Gigabit switch with POE.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Industrial-1000Mbps-Ethernet-Capacity-Universal/dp/B0C9C7JG3H/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=pEXwS&content-id=amzn1.sym.5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca%3Aamzn1.symc.e5c80209-769f-4ade-a325-2eaec14b8e0e&pf_rd_p=5f7e0a27-49c0-47d3-80b2-fd9271d863ca&pf_rd_r=28AJZXVFHRNWD914A6P3&pd_rd_wg=VT0fe&pd_rd_r=f3504ebe-ae0b-4c6b-90b6-54fe35951c4c&ref_=pd_gw_ci_mcx_mr_hp_atf_m&th=1

 

Two questions that I could not find answers to is 1) is POE "auto detect and deliver"  or always on, and, 2) is it able to have the "Green Ethernet" function disabled (Dante hates Green Ethernet).

 

But the price point and 12VDC powering might make it worth further exploration.

 

D.

That’s definitely a low price for a POE switch running on 12v!

 

Looks pretty similar to the one I use:

LINOVISION Industrial 5 Ports Gigabit Solar POE Switch with DC12V-48V to DC48V Voltage Booster,4 x IEEE802.3af/at 30W POE Ports @120W, IP40, Compact POE Power for Solar Power/RV Truck/VoIP Systems https://a.co/d/idsxBkL
 

I plugged it in and it just worked. POE automatically turned on for the port that needed it .

 It is really compact, but constructed very well with a solid feeling metal chassis.
 

(FWIW - I believe both of these are knockoffs of a TrendNet switch).

 

Did some pretty extensive research, but I have not found an unmanaged switch that allows turning off the “green” function. And they all seem to have EEE built in these days.  Funny because Audinate recommends using an unmanaged switch, but no EEE.
All that said, I have not had any Dante problems with my setup. Perhaps I have just been lucky, or (and I’m just guessing here), the relatively small setup within my cart may not have enough going on for it to be an issue, but it might be if you’re running a facility with multiple rooms and/or upwards of 100 channels.
- Or is it possible that these switches have become smarter about EEE functions, compared to back when Audinate first rolled out Dante? I don’t know, so I don’t want to make any recommendations that might get someone else in trouble. Proceed with caution and make sure you do your own research and testing. You know: YMMV.

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B_Van_Deusen

B_Van_Deusen

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On 8/23/2023 at 4:31 PM, Patrick Farrell said:

That particular one has a network filter IC in it which could possibly get fried if you inject voltage into it. There are fully passive versions that work both ways but that still wouldn't help in your case because the device on the other end is expecting spec PoE power but would only receive the voltage of your battery. The injector you posted up above would work because it has a DC-DC converter built in to provide the proper voltage but you're limited to connecting just one device. If you want the flexibility of a switch in your bag, Gotham has this one that can be powered from your BDS. Sadly it's not gigabit but should be plenty fast for a few channels like the AVIO devices and similar.

Yeah i did find another version on amazon that had splitter and injectors, but you bring up a good point that i will need a converter either way with those passive units.  Ideally if i get a switch with PoE i won't need it.

 

 

21 hours ago, Johnny Karlsson said:

That’s definitely a low price for a POE switch running on 12v!

 

Looks pretty similar to the one I use:

LINOVISION Industrial 5 Ports Gigabit Solar POE Switch with DC12V-48V to DC48V Voltage Booster,4 x IEEE802.3af/at 30W POE Ports @120W, IP40, Compact POE Power for Solar Power/RV Truck/VoIP Systems https://a.co/d/idsxBkL
 

I plugged it in and it just worked. POE automatically turned on for the port that needed it .

 It is really compact, but constructed very well with a solid feeling metal chassis.
 

(FWIW - I believe both of these are knockoffs of a TrendNet switch).

 

Did some pretty extensive research, but I have not found an unmanaged switch that allows turning off the “green” function. And they all seem to have EEE built in these days.  Funny because Audinate recommends using an unmanaged switch, but no EEE.
All that said, I have not had any Dante problems with my setup. Perhaps I have just been lucky, or (and I’m just guessing here), the relatively small setup within my cart may not have enough going on for it to be an issue, but it might be if you’re running a facility with multiple rooms and/or upwards of 100 channels.
- Or is it possible that these switches have become smarter about EEE functions, compared to back when Audinate first rolled out Dante? I don’t know, so I don’t want to make any recommendations that might get someone else in trouble. Proceed with caution and make sure you do your own research and testing. You know: YMMV.

 

Both of these units look great! Def a more elegant solution than mine, with more PoE overall wattage.  The only difference is that my consumer router is managed, and i thought that was good, but it seems unclear whether audinate prefers one or the other. I take it both of these are unmanaged, but if it works for you then it works i guess!  Def going to go this route over my DC-DC converter, although the project aspect of that seemed fun.

 

Oh yeah, is it really bad if the PoE isn't being "autodetected" and sends to a device that doesn't need it? ... like if one of the ports is going to my laptop (to control the network), could that damage it? -** Edit: after looking at several other devices it does seem like "PoE on demand" is standard, as there are little LEDs on each port for PoE, signifying that it turns itself on/off)**

 

Otherwise i also found another gem of a specification looking at the Linovision Switch (also i like the green), in the description that it only supports PoE "mode B" and after some reasearch it seems that "mode A" is more active and uses the same pins as the data, where "mode B" is more passive and uses different pins.  I haven't found any requirements on any devices that specifies one or the other, and @Johnny Karlsson here said its works fine so my thinking is that most devices either use mode B, or equipped for both... but thats an assumption.  Johnny have you used it to power different audio interface devices?  (i ask because the widespread use for PoE seems to be security cameras)

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PCMsoundie

PCMsoundie

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Brett,

 

Neutrik NA2-IO-DLINE 
I have this and have used it to provide 2 more LINE Level analog inputs to 888 after my 8 local micpres and first 4 AES channels (on 2 XLRs) when using XL-AES. I’ve tested it for outputs as well. 
 

I have the Audinate AVIO 2 XLR LINE OUT . Works fine. 
 

you mentioned

RDL SF-XMN4 - 4 mic/line inputs, 48v ph, compact
Similar options are
Shure ANIN4IN-XLR $625.USD
    MicPre or LINE Level
Dante Audio and Controlled remotely via Browser-based software control for all device parameters via single Ethernet. Imagine remoting your older Lectro SRc receivers with this. 

per input channel:
Preamp gain
Has 4 Band C/S Parametric EQ on every channel
Mute control
Digital gain
Polarity control
Phantom power
Manual- https://pubs.shure.com/guide/ANI4IN/en-US

Also
Tascam  MM-4D/IN-X
$750.USD
108dB SNR
built-in DSP mixer:
Compressors, parametric EQs, limiter, delay
Browser-based software control for all device parameters
https://tascam.com/us/product/mm-4d_in-x/top

this model can be powered by external DC power OR PoE.
Software info:
Control via pc/mac laptop or ios ipad
Phantom power (+48V) ON / OFF (mic input)
PAD (mic input)
Mic gain (mic input)
MIC/Line input switch
Compressor
4 band parametric EQ
Auto level control
Mute
Fader
TASCAM DCP CONNECT
https://tascam.jp/us/product/tascam_dcp_connect/top

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IronFilm

IronFilm

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On 8/24/2023 at 5:46 AM, B_Van_Deusen said:

I have a Lectro SRb and 4x 411's.  For whatever reason I've never used AES (just never happened), but i see your point here that if i had this guy, when i rent additional wireless (that have an AES plate) i can route them directly into the back 9 channels of the 888, and use the AJA converter box if not.  This is worth considering for sure.

Yes, that's another option, getting the Lectrosonics SR-AES3 and/or the AJA ADA4. But the SRAES3 is a little bit pricey, it is however very compact and elegant to use! 

 

So use the Lectro SRAES3 if you only need to squeeze in a couple more channels, but the ADA4 with it as well if you need 6x more channels. 

 

That way the SRAES3 + ADA4 + the 10x analog inputs on the 888 itself, will give you a maxed out total of 16x ISO channels you can record! 
 

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