How to bill/invoice for the Nomad?

[Mark Orusa]

I just finished my first gig with my new Nomad and was wondering how do you bill/invoice for it? I've seen some talk about varying the amount depending on how many features or recorded channels are used.

Looking at average gear rates:

744t $100/day

788t $150/day

788t w/ CL8 $175-200/day

Deva/Fusion $200/day

I'm thinking $150-175 for up to 4 tracks recording/mixing, $200 for up to 8 tracks recording/mixing.

Thought and opinions welcome,

Mark O.

[Jeff Wexler]

"I've seen some talk about varying the amount depending on how many features or recorded channels are used."

Wow. I must be working in a different world. I have never heard of tiered charges based on how many tracks were used. This seems nuts to me. Nomad, as a new machine and like any other recorder, should have a rental rate based on similar gear. In terms of its capability it is closest to Deva/Fusion I would imagine. If you go out on a job with a 10 track Deva for example but only use 6 tracks, does anyone discount the rental rate on the machine? I don't think so.

[Michael McQueen]

i've been doing $150/day.

[Solid Goldberger]

Jeff,

I think part of the issue that Mark is referring to is that it seems like the Nomad is being marketed to replace all other Mixers/Recorders for the ENG market. To that end, it leaves the owner/operator in a quandry. Assuming for this example I own the Nomad 12, If I go out for a job with only 2 wireless (where maybe in the past I would have used a SD 302) do I charge the rate for the ENG kit that would have gotten the job done, or do I charge for the rental based on the "Value" of my kit.

Its a legit issue, especially in relation to this machine, which seems clearly intended to replace a lot of other gear, and I'm curious to hear how others handle it.

Personally as an owner of both a 552 and a Fusion 10, I tend to make package rates, inclusive of wireless, slate, etc., but when I make kits surrounding the Fusion, I take into account that it does rent for $150-200 on its own.

e.

[Tom Visser]

I do this sometimes when I bring a $$$$ recorder on a job that could be done with a 552 instead. It is my preference to bring my unit for whatever reason, the client would be unfairly charged for a mixer / recorder due to the fact that I don't want to maintain another item in inventory to handle those mix-only jobs or go out and rent one. In this case, I show my normal fee for the more expensive unit, but then show a discount to equalize it against the unit (552) that could have done the job.

I guess it makes sense with the Nomad, because it could be a 4 channel ENG mixer, but it can also be a 12 channel recorder. Tiering the pricing out for the job makes some sense, because one wouldn't buy 2 Nomads with different features enabled / licensed, they would just buy the heaviest configuration that made sense for them.

[afewmoreyears]

Unless you are a rental house, I would bill a kit rate and would NOT bill seperate for various items (mixer/recorder) or itemize the BASIC package.... Easier for you, them and your wallet.... The kit rental is the same whether you use a 744 or a Nomad... the difference is in the EXTRA billing per Radio mics,or other items of gear if need be... that way you get the extra funds for multi channel that way. I don't think they care or want to know what recorder you use, as long as they get the job done.... Or whether it was a recorder/mixer or a recorder that actually did the job... ONLY an example... $500 and two radios (75ea) for example.... $650 for the day... Easier on everyone... I can't see trying to tell a producer they are paying by the track count...

[RPSharman]

You bill based on the job's requirements. What gear you bring to successfully accomplish the given assignment is up to you. I don't think producers know or care what gear you use.

If someone wants to rent a specific piece of gear from you (as a rental house) then that's a different story.

[James Arnold]

Jeff,

I think part of the issue that Mark is referring to is that it seems like the Nomad is being marketed to replace all other Mixers/Recorders for the ENG market. To that end, it leaves the owner/operator in a quandry. Assuming for this example I own the Nomad 12, If I go out for a job with only 2 wireless (where maybe in the past I would have used a SD 302) do I charge the rate for the ENG kit that would have gotten the job done, or do I charge for the rental based on the "Value" of my kit.

Its a legit issue, especially in relation to this machine, which seems clearly intended to replace a lot of other gear, and I'm curious to hear how others handle it.

Personally as an owner of both a 552 and a Fusion 10, I tend to make package rates, inclusive of wireless, slate, etc., but when I make kits surrounding the Fusion, I take into account that it does rent for $150-200 on its own.

e.

Absolutely! If I get a Nomad it will likely become my permanent mixer for 'regular' non recorder based work. Thus I will bill for it as a recorder when it's being used...as a recorder. The problem may arise however that either every production will start to expect a Nomad style mixer to be part of every ENG mans 'standard' gear OR that sound guys will offer them up 'for free' and kill the market for recorder rental.

[John Blankenship]

Absolutely! If I get a Nomad it will likely become my permanent mixer for 'regular' non recorder based work. Thus I will bill for it as a recorder when it's being used...as a recorder. The problem may arise however that either every production will start to expect a Nomad style mixer to be part of every ENG mans 'standard' gear OR that sound guys will offer them up 'for free' and kill the market for recorder rental.

Fortunately, the people who undercharge know what their talent is worth and the better clients quickly wise up to that.

[Jack Norflus]

I use my Nomad as my primary mixer as well. On mix only days I will bill it that way. On record days I will bill it as a recorder - regardless of the track count. Plus if I am using it to feed multiple cameras, or using Zaxnet to feed ERX's to be used in lieu of Comtek's I will add the cost of those as well. Basically even though everything is coming out of one box I bill as if I didn't have a Nomad and I had to use separate gear.

[afewmoreyears]

Fortunately, the people who undercharge know what their talent is worth and the better clients quickly wise up to that.

Some of them......

[Tom Conen]

I have the feeling that I will regret this posting, but after reading many of these threats about rates I have to say this!

Before buying any product and getting involved in the sound production process everybody should take a course in

Economics 101:

Equipment rate =

Costs for

- storage,

- setup,

- maintenance, (incl. cleaning!)

- purchase price,

- reserves,

- transport,

- packaging

- employees

- education (yes, getting to know the product is part of the costs)

-...

And of course profit.

Using an over-priced and over-complex product than needed is highly inefficient (in economical terms)!

Example:

Taking a Nomad 4 to a 302-job:

Nomad vs 302

- purchase price = $3900 (Nomad 12: $7100) vs $1295

- setup time = 5-15min vs 1min

- "education time" = 40h vs 0,5h

- maintenance factor = at least 5:1

- reserves = at least 4:1 (8:1 with Nomad 12)

etc.

As everyone can see a Nomad 4 is not just 3 times as expensive as a 302 like the purchase price may suggest. My humble guess is, that it is at least 5-6 times as expensive.

Rule of thumb: Use a (small) mixer when doing ENG style gigs. Use a multitrack recorder when doing features and movies.

And BTW I'm sorry for everyone who listened to advice to buy a product they might need sooooome day in the future.

Before the day arrives on which they will need their fancy big-style-equipment, there will be newer and cheaper equipment out there. And until that day they would have earned enough to buy that new stuff.

Best,

Tom

[hemmerlinj]

I've pretty much come to the decision that I'll be charging $100 more just to hit record. I use my Nomad everyday as a mixer, but really haven't needed to se the recording features yet. But when requested it will be $100 more for the rental.

[RPSharman]

I guess we're saying that it benefits nobody to bill for a particular brand or model of recorder/mixer.

Bill for the work required, and you supply whatever gear helps you to get it done. Dealer's choice.

[Matt Martin]

Plus if I am using it to feed multiple cameras, or using Zaxnet to feed ERX's to be used in lieu of Comtek's I will add the cost of those as well. Basically even though everything is coming out of one box I bill as if I didn't have a Nomad and I had to use separate gear.

Yea I think this is the issue more so than the track count. This one box can do so many things that were once separate machines and separate rental fees. Mixer, recorder, IFB transmitter, Wireless scratch track transmitter, wireless TC transmitter, TC master clock, mp3 transcription recorder (with timecode), etc... (probably others I am forgetting about) It's definitely important to still charge for each of these features as separate items. We don't want producer's thinking they just have to find someone with a nomad and they get all the goodies for the price of just a simple mixer/recorder.

[Wandering Ear]

Personally I quote equipment prices according to the jobs requirements, not what I own. What I bring to do the job is up to me. That's one of the benifits of being an owner/operator, as opposed to say an AC, who has to work with whatever camera the DP and Producers decided on (just an example).

My base equipment fee includes mixer, 3 channels wireless, and boom. If they want more wireless, IFB, camera hops, ISOs, etc... they have to pay for it. I start with my base package and add on the additionals that production has requested. Again, this is just my approach, but it seems appropriate. I'm not a rental house, I'm a sound mixer. I'm being hired to complete a job, and I bill what I think is neccessary to complete the job. Then I bring what I want to use to do that job with.

[carbonhobbit]

And we are right back to the problem where you are told what the production is paying and what they want for equipment. I too start out with the basic kit, but then have been told they want hardwired lavs and they don't want to pay for any wirelesses just to justify the lower rate. (I haven't done any hard wire for almost five years except for one live remote) Some also think you should throw in the hop for free since it will make your life easier. Give something for free once or at a reduced rate and it soon becomes the norm. I would rather just bring what I need for the job rather than bring out all the big guns. You don't go hunting squirrels with an elephant gun. It cost more than a 22 and you don't bring home much squirrel to eat. It's nice to have the newest and biggest toys, but it won't pay off if you only use some of the features. I believe that is what business school will teach you.

Scott.....

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm with Wandering Ear and Robert Sharman --- you should use the right equipment for the job you are doing and you should bill for the equipment that you are doing the job with. The whole post about efficiency and education (learning curve?) is pretty pointless I think. What no one has seemed to talk about here is the biggest factor that dictates what you will charge for the equipment you use --- it's the old "what ever the market will bear" and "typical going rates" associated with the job that will be your starting point --- not whether you are using an expensive and possibly confusing (to you) 12 track recorder and the job only requires that you have 2 tracks!

There are typical "ENG" (bag) jobs that the production company has a rough idea what the sound package is going to cost and an expectation and idea (often un-educated and un-realistic) of what will be required for the job. When you actually get the job, I believe most of us will show up with whatever we think is needed (or even possibly needed if someone else has mis-calculated) to get the job done properly. A simple example for many is whether they need to be recording (double system) or only feeding a camera (recording). I think an ENG package where the production company has categorically said they are NOT paying to make a recording anywhere other than the camera, this will be reflected in a lower package rental rate. But that lower rate does not necessarily dictate which piece of equipment you will use.

On a larger scale production, a feature movie for example, there is also a prevailing "package" rate which really is just whatever the UPM has in the budget for sound equipment per week. This figure is established often by what they paid on the last movie. The reality is that when they hire an experienced sound person with a good reputation and a good track record (and someone who most probably owns their own equipment) they have the expectation that you will show up with the appropriate equipment in the package (and at the rate you have agreed upon). I can tell you that when I show up with all the equipment I have, it will most probably be a lot more equipment than the other guy they hired last (even though the package rate per week is the same). The UPMs of the world count on this.

I always thought that on the lower rate (equipment) jobs they always expect a typical established package rate per day and if you agree to that you show up with the proper (professional) equipment to get the job done.

[Marc Wielage]

All good advice. I seem to recall that rental houses use a formula to calculate the daily rate for each item. Sometimes, it's based on demand and availability, but for something like a multitrack recorder, I think 2% per day isn't out of line. $10,000 recorder = $200/day (which I think is what Coffey Sound's rate card price is for a Deva V, Deva 5.8, or a Fusion). Weekly rates or package rates are open to negotiation. Me personally, I just do a package deal unless they ask for something that's kind of non-standard, like another dozen Comteks or sync playback.

And I agree with Jeff above on the equipment brought to the shoot. What UPMs and producers don't always consider is back up gear, which may not be something we charge for, but it might be the difference between shutting down the show or getting the take in spite of impossible odds.

[carbonhobbit]

But when do you say enough is enough. Have sound department been beaten down to the level where you never want anybody to say waiting on sound. Cameras, lights, genies and trucks all break down some times. Yes, I go out with back ups, but sometimes sh*t happens and I think there should be a time to throw in the towel and start again tomorrow. How much equipment or money spent do you need to be ready for anything. I know I'm not the only one that can afford to be that over prepared. How many times do you get asked why you have so much stuff with ya? I know the answer, but it does get asked.

Scott....

[JonG]

I enjoy reading these types of discussions because it really shows me a lot about what types of jobs and payments other people are getting. In my experience, coming from a freelance indie film perspective (then growing into television and features) is that on the indie side of things, people will just say "This is the rate we will pay, we need you to be able to handle everything and bring all your own equipment" with no prep time, communication with wardrobe or knowing the script or locations. Of course the rate is usually insulting (even if it is more than anyone else on set), and since sound is usually hired near last on these types of productions, the whole step involving being able to quote a rate that will pay for what is needed to get the job done is skipped over by production, and rates get lower and lower as expectations become higher and higher.

Then theres reality style shooting on television shows and such, which many people refer to as ENG. I have worked on a number of shows of all different kinds, with production companies from all over. They all seem to want a minimum of two wireless mics, a wireless send to camera (mono or stereo, sometimes multi-cam), and sometimes want a mixdown recorded and/or ISOs. They also usually want comteks, and sometimes a mono mp3 recording for transcription, as well as other odds and ends. In all of these scenarios I usually only see rates they vary almost not at all, and it tends to be in the $150 area. For that kind of a kit rental, I can see the use of a 302, two lavs, and a camera hop. But then I get gigs where Im required to lav up 8 people, record ISOs, send to camera, provide comteks, all for the same kit rental fee.

This is always dictated by the production company, and if you ask for more and do a great job of explaining costs and rental rates and such, they will simply say "if you dont want the job someone else will take it". And that right there is where most of the jobs Ive encountered lie. If you dont want the job, someone else will take it. What do we do when this is the only option out there? Get unions involved in reality tv? call a general strike?

[Marc Wielage]

How much equipment or money spent do you need to be ready for anything. I know I'm not the only one that can afford to be that over prepared. How many times do you get asked why you have so much stuff with ya? I know the answer, but it does get asked.

I've never been asked! I have had new boom ops say, "oh, god, tell me we're not going to have to unload all of that gear from the truck," and I laugh and say, "no, half of it's just backup. If we're lucky, it'll just stay here for most of the shoot."

Some would call it "over-prepared," but I've encountered days where I was only just barely prepared enough. But -- so far -- I've never been unprepared.

In all of these scenarios I usually only see rates they vary almost not at all, and it tends to be in the $150 area. For that kind of a kit rental, I can see the use of a 302, two lavs, and a camera hop. But then I get gigs where Im required to lav up 8 people, record ISOs, send to camera, provide comteks, all for the same kit rental fee.

At some point, you gotta take Nancy Reagan's advice and "just say no." I would rather starve than charge the same rate for 8 wires and Comteks for the same price as 2 lavs and a mixer. No bloody way. By the same token, if I was a cameraman, I wouldn't charge the same rate if I were supplying a Red Epic and a $100K lens kit as I would for, say, a Canon 7D.

[carbonhobbit]

I've never been asked! I have had new boom ops say, "oh, god, tell me we're not going to have to unload all of that gear from the truck,"

That might as well be, "Do we really need all this for this job?" So the question is asked.

We could just say we have AKS carts or bags.

Scott.....

[José]

I do the 'percentage times the street price' approach. For me it's so much easier to deal with. I determined my percentages based on what I found in going rates here in New York for simple owner/operator ENG packages and Rental House rate cards. So my percentages can lie anywhere between 1.2 and 2% to the cost of that gear. With recorders, I have them always fixed around 2% (sometimes a little over). I not only charge for the mixer/recorder, wirelesses and shotgun with this system, but also down to the iPolymer 9 Volts as well. I also priced out and charted all scenario packages from one wireless kit up to 10. Instead of figuring out a price while having the production manager on the phone, I already have it listed with minor adjustments of adding an IFB or two. My chart also helps me to not leave anything out that should be charged like a second set of receiver HOPs or the 4th NP1 in my kit, i.e.

For me, this approach also keeps me from underbidding too low as well as possibly overbidding too high. As long as I am not hitting the field more than a 100 work days to get my return value for a given piece of gear, I am satisfied with my kit rate.

[Mark Orusa]

Wow. Lots of good discussion here - thanks for sharing your thoughts and experience. For the job I referred to the client asked for just lavs, no boom and no timecode slate (they used their dumb slate). Given the circumstances it made sense and I have worked with these clients before. The base kit I usually invoice for is boom, mixer, and BDS, so this gig would have required me to invoice a little differently any way.

I think I'm going to bill for a mixer, recorder, and three wires. A good day in all, considering the shoot only lasted 2 hours.

Mark