afewmoreyears Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Could part of the problem be that we give away our sound secrets on this site? Anyone can buy the equipment that we use and push the record button, but what sets apart the newbies from the pros is the problem solving that takes years to learn. Yet we give that away to anyone that asks. A UPM told me a story that relates to what is happening here. An exec. producer from another show came to him and asked him if he knew of a place that fulfilled a laundry list of requirements and also how do you get around the other problems associated with that. The UPM said "I know all that stuff you want but you will have to hire me if you want what's in my brain. I am good at what I do because of what's in my head and I don't give that away for free." Is that not what we are doing here? Can't any newbie join this group and find the answer to his problems for free? We spent years of trial and error solving those problems and we give it away to a newbie so he can undercut us all on rates and jobs. He should just crash and burn thus causing the producer to question his choice of picking the cheapest sound guy he could find. + 4,697 Guilty as charged...I love to try and help, but truth is truth... It feels bad to even admit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Could part of the problem be that we give away our sound secrets on this site? - snip - Is that not what we are doing here? Can't any newbie join this group and find the answer to his problems for free? I don't think so. No matter how much we may list equipment, give specifications, talk about the tricks (tips and techniques) we use to do our jobs, there is a still a whole lot the is "in the brain" (or in our very being, our souls) that cannot be learned here on this site. When you say a Newbie can come on this site and get answers to their "problems" (for free), this is true, but only gets them a very small part of the way --- it helps keep them out of as much trouble as they might get into without having ANY of the answers. I feel that this site is most similar to a book that is being continuously and dynamically written by many, many authors --- a book that once read can help get you started but is not a substitute for real world experience or expertise. You know that phrase "it takes years of experience to get years of experience". The real problem is, the low ball producer hiring the newbie is gambling that that experience is not needed (and certainly they don't want to PAY for that experienced person) --- they can still produce their product, it will sell tickets and be profitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 If Plumbers never charge below $60 an hour, why the F%^K do some of you...? Society values a properly flushing toilet more highly than good production audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OmahaAudio Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I for one am in the camp of joining together to form a guild of our own. We make this guild Free (to cheap) to join so there's no excuse, and all members agree to NOT charge less than 10/hr for labor, and 300/day minimal for a basic sound package. The only problem with that is that it would probably be illegal and subject to charges of price fixing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seth Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 from a "newbie's" perspective(6years), I learned a lot from this site, but really only specific technical information that is usually derived from opinion. More so from manual's, dealer support, books. The community aspect is in invaluable though. Senators contact the manufacture is equall to rtfm. In short jw is great but not an end all to learning the trade. my mentors and other resources are also to play. Opinion 2:I personally i don't have a problem with bottom feeders. I used to be one! I don't see a solution to it so Why get upset about it? There will always be a new kid on the block willing to go cheap to learn. Wether or not the sound is good, they will eventually quit or learn the craft, as well as local rates and hopefully follow through with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Could part of the problem be that we give away our sound secrets on this site? Anyone can buy the equipment that we use and push the record button, but what sets apart the newbies from the pros is the problem solving that takes years to learn. Yet we give that away to anyone that asks. A UPM told me a story that relates to what is happening here. An exec. producer from another show came to him and asked him if he knew of a place that fulfilled a laundry list of requirements and also how do you get around the other problems associated with that. The UPM said "I know all that stuff you want but you will have to hire me if you want what's in my brain. I am good at what I do because of what's in my head and I don't give that away for free." Is that not what we are doing here? Can't any newbie join this group and find the answer to his problems for free? We spent years of trial and error solving those problems and we give it away to a newbie so he can undercut us all on rates and jobs. He should just crash and burn thus causing the producer to question his choice of picking the cheapest sound guy he could find. There's no point in hoarding knowledge, you'll need to find out something you don't know yourself someday. Do you really want to discourage someone who is genuinely interested in getting into sound? Don't you recall how you felt when, as a newbie, more experienced people talked down to you and obfuscated what turned out to be relatively simple info and concepts? Yeah, it feels weird to see someone you've helped start doing the same jobs you do, but for me it feels weirder to blow off someone who needs help, and I don't know anything that they couldn't find out from someone else pretty fast anyhow. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 What Phil says --- absolutely. Certainly if I had any of that "hoarding knowledge" notion in me I would never have started this site! There have been people in my life who were so generous with their knowledge and got tremendous satisfaction personally from sharing it, helping a "newbie" (I would live to find another term, but yes, I was one once). Along with a lot of good technical advice, it is this generosity that I learned from others. The importance of this sharing, helping others to understand the complex world we live in, is a lifelong commitment --- it doesn't end once you are no longer "new" to the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I have thought a time or two about starting a thread mirroring mirrors point of view. Then I remember how it was when I started out w a film degree and nothing else but desire and a work/hustle ethic. Not that it could have existed back then, but I thought how much would this forum of helped me. I don't think very much because I knew so little at the time. I may even of given up realizing how little I knew compared to all the others. All I know now about sound recording for picture is from the experience of doing the job. Even the low budget Corman or Drive in movies I did when I started with at a bottom feeder rate of pay. I know nothing is like it was 37 years ago when I started, but it turned out OK for me because I did meet some fine people along the way who shared some craft or technique with me. I feel like what little I offer here will not undercut the craft at large. Sharing is caring as my little niece tells me. As for bottom feeders.... I know too many and they will always be working for less than I am because they say yes and get known as the cheap guys. Sure I must loose some work to them, but their cheap ass producers call me when sound becomes important. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I see this topic come up all the time so I can't help but wonder if things are really that bad out there??? Is the problem that: 1. there are too many low ball jobs offered on CL, Mandy, etc.?? or 2. the type of calls you get are ridiculous low ball offers?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Could part of the problem be that we give away our sound secrets on this site? Another way to look at it: It is precisely this site and the free information that made me realize I was not only undervaluing myself and my gear in the short term, but that I was also lowering the perceived value of other mixers in my market for the long term. Because of this site, I rather quickly sucked it up and started turning down much more work than I was accepting. It was a tough thing at first (being that I quit my stable job to freelance in the industry full time and needed all the work I could find) but it soon led to better jobs and higher paying work and allowed me enough income to start upgrading my kit to allow for even higher rates. While this site might freely share information that it took some people many years to learn themselves, I also I feel like most of the members do a great job "educating" the newer/younger mixers when questions arise about low rates, charging appropriately for gear, OT, subway tuna, notating discounts on invoices when a break is given, etc.... It may just be my personal experience, but I feel if any newer mixers hang out here long enough, they quickly get the hint that low ball gigs are NOT cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Miramontes Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think Matt touched on something that rings true for me too. I found this site by accident one day when I first came in to the "sound scene" and was trying to google how to do something basic. This place was a saving grace for me and over time I learned what rates I should be charging instead of continually undercutting myself. I guess knowledge really is power. So, how about we post 2 types of Craigslist ads so that we can educate others who don't know any better. One ad can be called "Sound Mixer Needed" and will target any mixers looking for work and the other can be called "Cheap Sound Guy for Hire" which I'm sure Producers will flock to like flies on shit. The ads would be there to educate mixers and producers as to a few key concepts that resonate here quite a bit...."don't undercut your fellow mixer" and "you get what you pay for". I'm not as clever of a writer as Marc Wielage so I vote that he takes care of this. I guess teaching those that feed at the bottom will someday make things better for those on top. Or, maybe not. Maybe this is just something that ALL businesses go through and its only until you gain a competitive advantage (via experience, gear, personality, technique, etc. ) that you'll be able to get the rates you deserve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Some excellent viewpoints here... that's for sure.... I believe good or bad.. the time frame from zero to "I am a Sound Mixer" has gone from slow and realistic to warp speed with the aid of the net.... There is both positive and negetive outcomes of this internet age... not just for us, but for everything... I would say more positive than the opposite... I for one would be nowhere and nothing without help from so many... That's a fact... I have and do help many people whenever possible and have helped bring quite a few boom ops and a few mixers into this business..Trying to share info and teach... And, they are doing pretty well.. I always as a part of helping out tried to teach the big picture.... I think it worked because these folks both do a great job and are good at conducting themselves as professionals as well... in some ways better than me LOL... SETH: Plus there are probably a million plumbers maybe only a few thousand mixers?(guessing here) That must play into the calculation as well? It does, it says that they are better at it than us.... It should be the opposite... at least you would think so... It should be easier for the few... As for Price fixing, how would anyone prove something like that.... prosecute you for spitting out a quote, so what if everyone says the same thing... I just always found it strange that so many groups of workers in so many lines of business have these basic price points, and seem to stick to them... It would seem that our business is all over the map... How come the throngs of other professions are not prosecuted for price fixing? If that's what they want to call, a standardized rate structure of SOME sort... I have to admit, I am not really affected by it too much since I don't swim in that pool... but with the pool getting so big, I have to wonder... I never did understand why the people that probably work the hardest have one of the lower pay structures... Reality.... crap, as hard as they work, with all the gear hanging on their bodies for very long hours with little assistance, in my opinion, they should be paid double... at least... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 If that was correct, everyone would of been burned by now and "learning"... but that does not seem to be happening... They still think it's a better idea to simply take the chance on having it NOT done right the first time, and fixing it however they might after the fact... I personally see and hear about that all the time, put a butt in the seat that fits THEIR idea of a qualified person, at their unreasonable price point, and let the games begin... How do you know this isn't happening? a) Producer hears 'anyone can make a movie' and wants to go out and live that childhood dream. Producer tries doing the job, ultra-low budget, because no one cares about that shi**y script he wrote.. c) Producer 'of course' fails at this, because they didn't understand WHERE you must spend money. d) Producer then leaves the business, discussed. e) 5 More producers show up to take their place, because they heard, 'movies can be made cheap now!! others are doing it!!!' Were pawns in this sick game. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim M Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 CrewC sounds like your talking about the whole cream rises to the top theory. Although people who value themselves may work a little less than bottom feeders in this market, they have the down time to read up on their craft and then buy the gear that will get them their. How much of this would rising to the top would you consider luck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sounddguy Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 While there will always be bottom feeders the glut of jobs is caused in part by the cheap entry level DSLR cameras so now anybody can be a shooter / director. Think back to when word processing first came about. When anybody that would fork over a few dollars could "produce" a newsletter and we hand the ransom note era of newsletters. Gee, I have 20 different fonts in the software, I should use all twenty. That was followed by desk top video editing and audio recording and mixing. I have a computer, I are a studio. The cheap cameras create cheap opportunities to shoot video. You Tube provides an easy distribution system. Now all we need is cheap sound. Unfortunately at the same time, a large part of the economy has taken a serious hit. I used to get good rates for recording voice talent for corporate training pieces. Now the talent records at home, the corporations have producers that do their own editing and mixing. The 1 inch video edit studio I worked along side folded because every one started editing at home. I can't imagine anyone who would not love to make great rates, but except in a few select markets the reality is if you want to eat, you work at local rates. I know a great videographer who is close to bankrupt because he insists on getting his old full rate for every job. It's a great thing to strive for, but he sits by the phone waiting most of the time. There is only so much full fare work out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sounddguy Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 As for Price fixing, how would anyone prove something like that.... prosecute you for spitting out a quote They don't have to win. They crush you by what you have to spend defending yourself. I once spent $3K proving water runs downhill naturally. Fortunately the judge was a quick study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 How much of this would rising to the top would you consider luck? Not sure about the cream theory. I know many better than I. Luck plays some part, but mostly it comes down to working hard and well w others and conducting your operation with honor. Doing the best job you can given the circumstances. Walking away knowing the importance of the job in the big picture of life and not blowing it out of proportion to the most important aspects of life. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim M Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Thanks CrewC. I've always enjoyed your posts. "Luck plays some part, but mostly it comes down to working hard and well w others and conducting your operation with honor." I like the way that reads, but don't quite understand that yet. I look around and see so much of the opposite...at least what I feel opposite. I have though connected with some real honest people and am thankful every time I get to work and hang out with them. I hope wherever I end up this continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Ragon Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Prosecuted? I'm sure the State of California will have the same investigators that look into those 'internship for hire' companies.. Yeah, right.. there's no one thats even going to bother with looking into some volunteer group on this. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 "I like the way that reads, but don't quite understand that yet. I look around and see so much of the opposite...at least what I feel opposite."T M It takes time to understand Tim. The BS'rs and bad players mostly fall away as time goes by. The best people you meet along the way usually stay in the game till the end. Just like good luck, bad luck will befall us all and can take us out of the game but that's life in and out of Hollywood. Looking back to when I started out, I was certainly not as confident as I am today, but I still believed in myself. How? Somehow. That is the answer to the riddle of life IMO. Best of luck and I hope your hard work pays off. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I think learning while rising through the ranks is the way to do it. You are then taught by others while being hands on. I oppose the " Buy some gear, ask some questions and presto! You're a mixer" method of progression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Prosecuted? I'm sure the State of California will have the same investigators that look into those 'internship for hire' companies.. Yeah, right.. there's no one thats even going to bother with looking into some volunteer group on this. -Richard I concor.... So who's writing our basic code of conduct and protocol? Someone step up. There are some pretty savvy and eloquent persons among us... I wish I were one... Maybe it can be collaborative.. no pricing or anything, just basics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 There isn't anyone or any organization to really confer upon you the title of "mixer" or "sound person first class" or whatever (well, sort of the union and sort of the CAS). In our biz, at least in my area, after you've worked some and people kind of know you you have to "declare" yourself a soundie and hope most other people concur. A lot of the concurrance comes from other crew people--do they "buy" you as what you say you are? If they do, and maybe later other sound people do (esp people you might have worked for) then producers start to find out. Only foolish producers hire soundies without a personal recommendation. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 Bottom feeders will always be there because they are willing to accept low rates and poor conditions and they will struggle in their own to achieve results. If you notch up your rates and seek decent jobs an clients you will enjoy bigger budgets, better planned jobs, more support and a happier working life. - and the low rent jobs will no longer bother you Trust me! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Burstein Posted August 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I think Matt touched on something that rings true for me too. I found this site by accident one day when I first came in to the "sound scene" and was trying to google how to do something basic. This place was a saving grace for me and over time I learned what rates I should be charging instead of continually undercutting myself. I guess knowledge really is power. So, how about we post 2 types of Craigslist ads so that we can educate others who don't know any better. One ad can be called "Sound Mixer Needed" and will target any mixers looking for work and the other can be called "Cheap Sound Guy for Hire" which I'm sure Producers will flock to like flies on shit. The ads would be there to educate mixers and producers as to a few key concepts that resonate here quite a bit...."don't undercut your fellow mixer" and "you get what you pay for". I'm not as clever of a writer as Marc Wielage so I vote that he takes care of this. Well said by Matt. If something like that is written well and by someone respected and with credentials I can see it having an impact. A good way to go beyond just craigslist though would be sharing the "ad" with producers that call any of us asking us to take lower rates. Better yet, having a producer co write it with a mixer! One person earlier mentioned that producers do not WANT to be educated and know what they're getting themselves into. These would not be the target audience of course, but I do believe many producers do not know any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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