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Jeff Wexler

Cyclone vs. Piano

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So that's why they call it cyclone.. You get a DIY cyclone effect kit at the same time...
That swinging test is all you need to know about the Cyclone. Best way to simulate wind. Thanks a lot for sharing.
 
Mistake from Rycote to claim it does not need a fur cover. Cinela does not have to worry...
 
Pity, because Cinela's are a *** in the *** to (dis-)assemble.

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Actually I was exited about the cyclone and was an early adopter, but I had to send it back because of the 'swinging' problem. I'm now a proud owner of a piano with the new type of fur ... Great product!

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Do they know in Rycote that huge things make even bigger shadows? This monster is probably perfect for atmo / wild track recording but I can't imagine serious booming during the sunny day when you have no control of lighting...

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Actually I was exited about the cyclone and was an early adopter, but I had to send it back because of the 'swinging' problem. I'm now a proud owner of a piano with the new type of fur ... Great product!

New type of fur??

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Thanks fellas. I think I'm going to get a Piano for my MKH60. Is there a hard case for it? Anyone using anything that protects it well? Also has anyone had experience of it? Good or bad?

 

Also what type of fur should I order? This new stuff?

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Thanks fellas. I think I'm going to get a Piano for my MKH60. Is there a hard case for it? Anyone using anything that protects it well? Also has anyone had experience of it? Good or bad?

 

Also what type of fur should I order? This new stuff?

Piano rocks man, 

it comes with a zip up semi hard material case.  Like hard bendable plastic covered in material.  

 

I have the pianissimo,  which has the clear hard plastic case, which is amazin IMHO.  Hoping he makes for piano, I have asked them, will let you know what they say.

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Piano rocks man, 

it comes with a zip up semi hard material case.  Like hard bendable plastic covered in material.  

 

I have the pianissimo,  which has the clear hard plastic case, which is amazin IMHO.  Hoping he makes for piano, I have asked them, will let you know what they say.

Can you remove all of the basket easily and just leave the suspension?

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It's always difficult to know what to do about replying to "knocking copy" - do you maintain a dignified silence, try to explain why it is incorrect (while gritting your teeth), or knock the opposition just as hard. I've never liked the last approach - it tends to be demeaning - but after keeping quiet for a while I'll go for the middle option.

 

I've no idea how Cinela regulated their "swing" test- they don't say. Different swing rates, different microphones, different gains in the channel, different micro-environments around the windshields will affect the results. So I've done my own "swing" tests in my workshop.

 

The environment remains the same - we're dealing only with the effect of swinging, so no air movements due to other things contaminate the results. I used a 2m pole and swung the microphone back and forth repeatedly over a 4m arc - I used the walls of the workshop as a guide to arc-width and I used a click in my headphones to give me the same rate of swing - 1.5s end to end. That's quite a fast swing to be doing repeatedly but I think it's roughly what Cinela were doing, even if no sane boom op would be doing this for real in a production.

 

I then set a spectrum analyser program recording each swing set for 20sec. Sampling rate was 192k and bit depth 24 to prevent any risk of artifacts making a mess of things, and I used a 131072 length FFT to give decent LF response. The same CMIT5U was used for every test and the audio channel level was untouched throughout.

 

You can see the results on the attached file. The blue-grey trace is a Super Softie - a creditable result but inherently less good than a Cyclone or Piano because the rear of the microphone is exposed. I put it in so that you can see that the test shows up real differences.

 

The red trace is a Cyclone and you can see how it tracks the dark green Piano one very closely. The Rycote is marginally weaker around 150 Hz and a chunk better around 300Hz but I wouldn't want to claim significance either way. In these tests it is extremely doubtful that anyone could reliably distinguish the two. Adding fur (the orange - Cyclone + jammer, and light green - Piano + long fur) gives very similar results. Both are slightly improved from the naked versions - neither is significantly different from each other.

 

Note that there are no whistles, or high(er) frequency artifacts generated in either windshield.

 

Whatever differences Cinela were trying to demonstrate don't appear to be repeatable on a more scientific test. That comes as no surprise to me - I wouldn't expect there to be one. There are differences between the two designs but they wouldn't show in this sort of scenario.

 

I don't have a Pianissimo to test but I would anticipate a slightly poorer result with that because it is smaller. Please remember that the efficiency of a windshield is not the "still air volume" - it is the distance of the capsule from the perimeter, and closely follows a cube power of that distance. Even slightly smaller windshields are inevitably less good purely because of this - physics decrees it.

 

Chris Woolf

post-4333-0-45458400-1423824533_thumb.jp

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That's what I love about you Chris, Someone does a cheap video and you go into your lab and produce scientific results.

For people who don't know Chris Woolf works for Rycote but is one of the nicest and most intelligent people I have had the pleasure of meeting. He has always been a great source of knowledge and advice. He is honest with his criticism which he always goes above and beyond to look at all the info possible.

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If you want to see some real  differences between the Rycote and Cinela products I'm happy to share some other measurements with the group.

 

These were carried out using a pair of CMC641s - one naked and the other covered by a windshield. The one in the windshield was artificially lengthened to make it sit as a short rifle would. I only used 641s as they were well matched throughout their frequency range and polar pattern.

 

I used real hardcore wind - out on moorland and away from traffic, trees or any other noise source. The mics, on studio stands, were pointed upwards to prevent momentary wind direction confusing things. The wind was very strong - on a couple of occasions it simply blew the stands over. It was the sort of conditions when a news or docco team would have carried on but nobody else would.

 

Each channel was recorded simultaneously with a stereo mixer and 2-channel recording as a .wav file. These were then analysed later (in more comfort!).

 

The black horizontal trace on the attached file is a reference one - the two CMC641s transfer functioned to each other. The flatness of the trace gives a measure of the reliability of the comparisons. The other traces are also transfer functions - a bare mic to a covered one, and thus take account of the variability of the wind at any moment. Gains were left unaltered throughout, and great care was taken to prevent limiting at any point.

 

The dark green trace is a Piano, the dark blue trace is a Cyclone, the pale green is a Piano with its long fur, and the pale blue trace is a Cyclone with a Windjammer. I'll leave you to work out which windshield works best.

 

Note that all the windshield traces show some low level spiky behaviour. As far as I can tell (simple listening and other methods of analysing what's happening) the source is low-level whistles on the mic stands - everything was singing in this sort of wind. You don't see it on the reference trace because the quiet whistles are totally swamped by the wind noise.

 

That is an important point to note. With the massive level of wind noise reduction and the high transparency of a Cyclone people are hearing things they didn't realise were there before. It is akin to the change from transformer to electronic output on microphones - some users found it disconcerting to hear the increased and less distorted bass response. They started noticing the weakness in the suspension systems they used... which was why Rycote spend so much effort improving them.

 

Chris Woolf

post-4333-0-62068800-1423829129_thumb.jp

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Chris - any idea why I´ve got even more handling noise in a Cyclone vs WS4? The low freq handling became much more obvious when the basket elements were put on the Cyclone suspension than without.

 

 

quoting myself from another thread:

 

did a quick test at Kortwich with the Cyclone. Hoping to reduce handling noise I compared 2 CMITs one in a Rycote WS4 the other in a brand new Cyclone.

 

This is MY SPECIFIC setup - other might get different results!!

 

 

My Zaxcom TRX742 (Highpass @80Hz) plugged into the cable / holder at the bottom of the Cyclone / WS4 into a SD302 with 80Hz HPF engaged.

 

The handling on the Cyclone was much worse than with my older (recent model) WS4.

 

I thought there would be no straight connection from the pole thread up to the mic suspension but it is basically like a standard mic-suspension / pistolgrip. What is decoupled from that is the basket and it´s mounting-plate.

 

Handling without the basket was ok but not as good as my dedicated Cinela. Click the basket on and I was getting a lot of additional bass response to my knocking on the pole (for testing purposes).

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<< one of the nicest and most intelligent people I have had the pleasure of meeting. He has always been a great source of knowledge and advice. He is honest with his criticism which he always goes above and beyond to look at all the info possible. >>

 

+1

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Thank you Chris Woolf! Amazingly thorough testing, bench testing and real world testing. All along I have had a little bit of a problem with the title of this thread: "Cyclone vs. Piano" because it makes it seem like a boxing match or a contest but the posts and comments that followed, up until now, were all over the map. Everything from the "swing test" to anecdotal accounts, speculation and so forth. I am pleased, however, that JWSOUND can provide a platform for this conversation, and also very pleased that you, Chris, have joined in (understanding completely your reticence).

 

The main thing this topic provides, in my opinion, is to encourage the keen interest we should all have in both these amazing products.

As always, the best tests will come not from the inventors, the dealers, the sales people, but from the professional sound people who actually use these windscreens in the real world on real jobs.

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Can you remove all of the basket easily and just leave the suspension?

No,  cannot,  I just remove the mic and onto a different suspension for indoor or light wind / weight setups.  The basket removal is super quick. 

 

not as quick as cyclone,  love the way that thing comes appart.  

 

I think it would have proved more popular to release the cyclone in a frame similar to piano, and same weight.  The cyclone is rather large.

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No,  cannot,  I just remove the mic and onto a different suspension for indoor or light wind / weight setups.  The basket removal is super quick. 

 

not as quick as cyclone,  love the way that thing comes appart.  

 

I think it would have proved more popular to release the cyclone in a frame similar to piano, and same weight.  The cyclone is rather large.

Thanks, the fact that you cannot remove the basket entirely, quickly and easily means I won't buy Cinela windshields even if they are very good otherwise. I just often don't have the time to mess about changing suspensions or mics.

This is a major advantage of the Cyclone for me - get rid of, or re-attach the whole basket fast.

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Thanks, the fact that you cannot remove the basket entirely, quickly and easily means I won't buy Cinela windshields even if they are very good otherwise. I just often don't have the time to mess about changing suspensions or mics.

This is a major advantage of the Cyclone for me - get rid of or re-attach the whole basket fast.

They are both good products, just think cinela have let themselves down with that video.

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