Reva Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 I don't shoot videos using DSLR, but with the body I used to check mechanical noise, especially due to the lens and when settings are changed manually on the DSLR (for example rotating the main or sub dial), will not allow a satisfactory sound quality with a hotshoe mounted mic. IMO even using a shotgun with Rycote lyres camera noise will still be a problem (here not discussing the basic pros and cons of using a hotshoe-mount mic as such). Possibly other cameras and lenses are less problematic but I don't know as I haven't checked it. I used several constant aperture f/2.8 zooms and all cause some slight noise even if focusing manually and disabling optical stabilization, old lenses with direct mechanically acting focusing ring are nearly silent but the ident noise of the aperture ring will mostly still be heard and the issue related to operating camera controls remains. If not mechanically connected to the camera there are no handling noise issues with the SVMX as long as it's handled carefully (can even be handheld but it's not very convenient, using some grip with a 5/8" thread or 1/4" to 5/8" thread adapter or a boompole will be safer and more convenient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnlicht Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 Hi, The biggest problem using M/S is the susceptibility to handling noise. The figure 8 mic will pick up the slightest vibration. To record M/S well you need superb isolation. We use http://ambient.de/en/product/floater/ http://ambient.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/QFL_www.pdf as well as http://ambient.de/en/product/twister/ and cotton gloves on the boom when boomed, along with the best M/S windshield/suspension you can afford. In a doc interview situation we put the M/S mic on a stand using a boom buddy. We use either a AT4053b or AT4051b for interiors, 416 for exteriors, and MKH 30-P48 for the side. If time allows, we will use also simultaneously use Tram50s or Countryman B6s. Veterans may pooh-pooh the AT's but they have worked for us, and having flexibility in the M/S imagery by having the two capsules has been a must. I also do not see the benefit of using the 418 as you need to have a lot more variability in your Mid element to produce reliable results. RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted January 25, 2018 Report Share Posted January 25, 2018 It's extremely important to have a mic on camera when shooting documentary. Not for technical problems like sych, but for the proximity you get with your subject. The POV of the cam wich isn't always the one of the boom. It's quite challenging to get the sound right, lots of variables, noise of handling, right mic and size, the willingness of the DP to have one on board. MS is a nice option but better have a good mono. I as I DP always ask to have one. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSatz Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 The RSM 190 and RSM 191 are exactly the same microphone. Neumann didn't sell these microphones separately, but only in sets with accessories and a carrying case, and it's the accessories (mainly the required matrix box) that differ by "generation". There have been three different types of matrix box (MTX 190, MTX 191 and MTX 191 A), with differences in cabling and powering arrangements between the MTX 190 on the one hand, and the two MTX 191 models on the other. But any of these matrix boxes can be used equally well with a microphone labeled either as "RSM 190" or as "RSM 191", as long as you use the right type of cable between the microphone and the matrix box. The main functional difference among the matrix boxes is that the MTX 190 requires external 48 Volt phantom powering, while the MTX 191 [A] offers a compartment for a 9V battery for when phantom powering isn't available, plus a toggle switch for battery vs. phantom operation. Specifications are identical for both types of powering. Battery life is claimed to be 8 hours for an alkaline, which I haven't tested. The MTX 191 has a low battery LED, while the MTX 191 A has a "battery test" position on its battery-vs.-phantom toggle switch. The MTX 191 and 191 A also have a 10 dB pad switch, a switch to shift the (always on) low-cut filter up from 40 to 80 or 200 Hz, and a switch that reverses the L vs. R outputs in either X/Y or M/S mode--none of which the MTX 190 has. Speaking of low-cut filters, there is also a gradual rolloff filter for frequencies below about 150 Hz for the "S" channel (figure-8) only, in the body of the microphone itself. This filter can be bypassed by unsoldering a bridge on the circuit board. Bypassing the filter makes the stereo pickup more spacious-sounding, but of course it also increases the risk of wind and handling noise. The filter is engaged when the mike comes from the factory, but if you buy a used RSM 190 or 191, this solder bridge should be checked (pages 9 and 10 of the instruction manual) to make sure that it's set the way you need it. --best regards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werner Althaus Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 I see a lot of references made to the Neumann RSM 191 in this thread. I have 2 of them that are in need of repair. Does Sennheiser USA do a good job with those? I agree, they are wonderful sounding but unfortunately not very good in humid conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 I also start a small documentary project but I'm not quite sure which techniques to use. An M/S mic is a common choice because you have a lot of flexibility in post to decide how wide the pattern should be. But it also has some downsides as you've already mentioned (very sensitive to wind and handling noise, price for a decent sounding figure eight capsule). I will always have someone to boom near the camera, so I don't see the point to have an additional camera mic. Maybe to record the ambient/atmosphere sounds simultaneously from the camera perspective and to be able to mix it with the dialogs from the boom in post. But probably it's better to try to get the cleanest dialogs as possible when rolling and to record the the ambience sounds later, or in between takes. This way you can choose the right stereo pattern for the ambient sounds you want to capture (more directivity, or more diffused and uncorrelated sounds). In some circumstances I can put some lavs on the main charachters but in others I can't do that. Often I'll have more than one person or small groups of people in front of the camera and it would be difficult to boom with a very directional shotgun mic. I guess you'll always be late. That's why I thought to use a supercarioid for small groups to have smoother levels. Any opinions on that? Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismedr Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 since the Sanken CMS-50 came up in another thread and I thought it might be an excellent option for M/S in documentaries, I thought I'll mention it here and post a cross reference: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haifai Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @pillepalle thats why ms is very handy, you can choose the mid mic (from cardioid to shotgun everything is possible) and you capture ambience while rolling... if you have a group of people you will get the sound of them better because you will capture a wider field cause of the stereo recording... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Thanks for your suggestions. The Sanken CMS-50 might be a good option for ambience sound, but for dialogs it seems to pick up too much from the sides... a cardioid is already wider than a supercardioid, and the only thing you can do in post is making it even wider adding the figure eight. At least looking at the specs you have about 6db of reduction from the side in the cardioid pattern. Maybe the interference tube makes it a more directive - who knows... And then you always have a fixed relation between dialog and ambience if you record both with the same mics. The other thing is that your dialog may start to jump around between your loudspeakers as you move your mic. If you record the dialog seperately from the ambience you can pan it always in the center and let the ambience move if necessary. Wouldn't that be better? Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.paterson Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 The Pearl MSH 10 excellant m/s mic for doc work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @ r.paterson Yes, thanks An interesting option. I don't know Pearl as a microphone company, but it's maybe worth a try. Unfortunately there's no reseller in Germany so I would have to buy it in the UK. The other thought was to get just a figure eight mic and make a mic sandwich, as I already have a nice Supercardioid (the Gefell M 310), or if I would like to use a different mid-microphone. But on the other hand a single M/S mic is smaller and easier to rig. Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haifai Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 i use gefell m310, mkh 416 or kmr 81 for the mid depending the location and distance from subject, for the side i use a neumann km 120, before i have been using neumann rsm 191 exclusivly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 1 hour ago, r.paterson said: The Pearl MSH 10 excellant m/s mic for doc work. Really wonder this microphone. Not much out there on the interwebs. Care to share your day to day experience with it? You use it as a main mic, also for mono (just mid i reckon) applications? Reach of the mid, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.paterson Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Vincent R. said: Really wonder this microphone. Not much out there on the interwebs. Care to share your day to day experience with it? You use it as a main mic, also for mono (just mid i reckon) applications? Reach of the mid, etc. Hi The msh 10 i have often used as mono mic its very close to my mkh50 a tad brighter and has good reach..when doing m/s exterior i keep using the msh10 for dialougue the reach is good outside with decent side rejection and a fairly smooth off axis fits in a rycote 2 windshiend a tad too big for windshield 1 ..its about the same s/n as schoeps, about 18 months ago Pearl made me a rfi bullet proof board for msh10 as it was getting wiped out by my zax tx hop. The S capsule is little bit noiser than the mid but not by very much not something i notice in normal filming envroment. Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @ haifai Yes, Neumann actually has the KK120 figure eight capsule together with the analogue output stage KM A. But it's about the same price as a Schoeps CCM 8... something I could afford to buy only on a later date this year. Funny that you also have a Gefell M310. There are not too many around. I love it and will surely get a second one for stereo use Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haifai Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 its the kk120 and km a that i have (it was cheaper then a ccm when i bought it),together with the gefell its a fantastic true stereo impression, nothing hyped just like you hear it with your ears, its a pity that gefell dont make a sdc fig 8... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent R. Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 58 minutes ago, r.paterson said: Hi The msh 10 i have often used as mono mic its very close to my mkh50 a tad brighter and has good reach..when doing m/s exterior i keep using the msh10 for dialougue the reach is good outside with decent side rejection and a fairly smooth off axis fits in a rycote 2 windshiend a tad too big for windshield 1 ..its about the same s/n as schoeps, about 18 months ago Pearl made me a rfi bullet proof board for msh10 as it was getting wiped out by my zax tx hop. The S capsule is little bit noiser than the mid but not by very much not something i notice in normal filming envroment. Richard Thanks Richard. Looks interesting. Definitely for documentary work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r.paterson Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 50 minutes ago, pillepalle said: @ haifai Yes, Neumann actually has the KK120 figure eight capsule together with the analogue output stage KM A. But it's about the same price as a Schoeps CCM 8... something I could afford to buy only on a later date this year. Funny that you also have a Gefell M310. There are not too many around. I love it and will surely get a second one for stereo use Greetings Im another convert to the M310 its a great mic..i now use it more than my mkh50..Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnlicht Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Couple of things to remember that have been said before. You really can't use the advantages of M/S unless you have a static camera position(s). Following behind moving action or booming moving action will not be usable in post (obviously mid will always remain useful.) Also ideal mid booming may not be the same as ideal M/S booming even with a static camera. We use M/S for documentary all the time time, but always lav and switch to the Cmit or 416 for moving camera or dynamic situations. The other thing we found is that the pickup pattern used for the mid mic can have a significant impact on the final mixed stereo signal. We use the AT 4051 Mid for interiors with the Cardioid or Hypercardioid capsule, depending on the situation along with the MKH-30 for Side. For exterior we use the 416 or Cmit for mid. Also very important, sometimes overlooked, is that the mid and side capsules must be directly on top of one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @ sinnlicht Thanks for the advice. I've already speculated in my post that it might not be good to move the M/S mic around and you seem to confirm that. One question I have is this one - do you record the ambience sound always seperately and when? During the take, or afterwards? Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnlicht Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Quote Basically, (the purists will rightly chime in and protest) we use an M/S boom most of the time (with the right Mid for the situation) discard the S when unneeded and often just use M/S signal for room tone from a quiet moment in between takes. We also take ext. atmo, and stereo wild tracks on the fly by having the M/S configuration on the boom. All of this takes a quite M/S aware boom operator and recordist, simply to know which signal to monitor in which situation, otherwise your recording will suffer. This takes quite a bit of practice and routine to do well. Another thing, also mentioned, is that handling noise on an M/S boom is a BIG problem when moving around. That is why if we know its really run and gun, we switch to standard one mic boom scenario by having a second pole and windscreen ready to go for this purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @ sinnlicht Thanks Your monitoring tip surprised me. I didn't even thought about that. So it might be useful to matrix the monitoring headphone signal directly in the recorder? Greetings PS: ...not even shure if my recorder is able to matrix only the monitor signal. I guess it will matrix also the recording channels 😕 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinnlicht Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 Its complicated, you need to know whether the recordist monitors M or matrixed signal, and then what are you sending to your boom op? Then on top of the that you have to decide if you are sending a matrixed signal to your cameras for guide track or just use M. M/S requires planning and discipline otherwise you have a mess on your hands because of the unnecessary complexity. If you can only record your matrixed signal and not M/S isos, this feels like a recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillepalle Posted April 22, 2019 Report Share Posted April 22, 2019 @ sinnlicht Thanks again. Yes, I guess I have to practice it a couple of times before using it on set 😀 Greetings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haifai Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 @pillepalle regarding monitor options - what recorder do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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