Argument with the Script Super..

[Richard Ragon]

This issue has come up 2 times in my limited career as a sound mixer.  I'm going to give you guys the scenario, my theory, and see you any of you agree with me.. or not.  So, here it goes..

 

While on set, I find myself interacting alot with script supervisors.  I feel it's both our jobs to keep things organized, and we have to make sure both of us are on the same pages (so to speak) in making sure the scene and take numbers are correctly written and called.

 

A few years back I had an older scripty lady that has been in the biz for 20+ years.  After a few hours filming, we had a false start where we cut after 1 min, and we saw NO SLATE.  Both the sound and the camera had rolled.  I asked the 2nd AC to advance the slate to take 2.  This triggered the scripty to (shall we say) disagree with me in this line of thinking.. She said, no slate, no advance.. being senior to me, I say.. OK.. whatever.. and proceed to rename my take <scene> - <take> + A.. just to get over the naming convention, and I make some notes on the sound report.

 

After a break, I go talk to her.. She insist, no slate, no forward..  So, I ask, well.. "what do you name the files?"  She has this puzzled look on her face, and insist that she's been doing it like this for 20 years, and that's how its done..

 

So..  Here's my explanation of the whole thing.. and I'll let you guys tell me if I'm wrong..

 

Back in the old days.. Film is linear.  Each frame is taken on a long spool, and you end up with one long developed roll of all your shots.  The assistant editor would go though this roll, and cut it each time he sees the change in the frame with the slate at the head of the strips. A false start would simply just be tacked on to the end of the last take, and would just eventually end up on the cutting room floor.  The scene and takes at that time would be attached to the strips of film, and eventually one scene would be chosen by the editor for use in the final cut.

 

Fast forward to the digital age.. Each time you hit the record button on that camera, there is a NEW file created, stamped with meta data and a time stamp.  Some cameras would name this file via a random name, and some with a sequential roll and file number depending how the DoP set it up.  These files are passed onward via the DIT and all the files find their way to the post editing phase.

 

As the assistant editor is going though these files, he's assigning them a scene and take number, even if there is no slate at the front.  By the time the editor looks at it, he will most likely make that choice to dump it.. but my personal experience as an assistant editor, is to never dump anything.. you never know what you can use.  (I've created an intro out of out of focus shots once).

 

Now, I've argued my point to the crusty old scripty, but to no avail.  I've tried to explain the digital work flow would be very different to a film work flow.. but no go.  She believes the file would be better off just 'orphaned', but the really bad thing about this is if she won't let us move to the next take, it means I have to delete the file from my system, or re-name the next take, either option is just not good and delays me a tiny bit, where I believe it's just not an issue.. It seams better if we just increment, and move on, slate or no slate.. I don't think it matters.. it's just the next take!  I've had shots from directors that took takes with no slate on purpose, and why does everyone act like another take on the slate is costing money??

 

As luck would have it, I ran across another scripty of 20+ years on my last shoot.. and we had this small clash again..  The overwhelming amount of scripties have simply just been very accompanying for the jobs, but I'm finding the older ones are a bit set in the film world ways.

 

Is my theory of film vs digital editing work flow correct?  Or should I just get used to the 'false start' options.

 

Thanks everyone..

-Richard

[Olle Sjostrom]

To me, your thinking is correct. On the other hand, if there are reports and notes in scriptys paper that "this file is a false start" then there's really no issue. 

 

I've almost only shot digital and the only times I don't advance take is when I'm the only one who rolled.. 

 

Whenever I meet someone grumpy I just do whatever he/she says. I won't waste my energy trying to learn an old dog to sit. If post gets mad I know who to blame.

[rich]

for me. if they dont call action, then its a false start. if action happens (wether called or not) then doesnt matter if they get a board on or not (like missing the end board), its still a take and file number.

 

oh hang on, im just repeating what youve already said.

 

i learned all that working with experienced (and not so) script supervisors.

 

however, i have always said, i will rename my files to match the script supers notes if they insist. i might put a note in my report if i think there will be some confusion down the line or to cover my arse.

 

and now im repeating what Olle said.

im glad to be contributing to this thread

[Olle Sjostrom]

Repetition is king! 

 

Repetition is king!

[soundtrane]

Well, if "Action!" happens, then the slate has been exposed to camera already, so it's a no-brainer then. All the 'confusion' happens with situations that get 'Cut' before the slate is exposed, and this includes 'camera rolled' and 'camera did not roll' situations... 

 

 

Scriptys:

 

 

well, i have worked with one - here's an example of a file name: 

 

17A Ins2 New2 B1 Y3 L2

 

 

When I realised I'm gonna run out of space i started using the notes field instead... heh... 

 

 

And then a scripty who did not know what to do if a shot was being done with two cameras, or three... 

 

 

Like some 'sound people' who dont' know their Axx from their elbow, there are also Directors, Producers, DPs, editors, and... Scriptys!

[mikewest]

Yeah I guess old school do not understand the digital reality of generating files and needing to name them

 

It's tedious for us to go backwards - I hate deleting files just in case!!!!

 

Sometimes I re-label as another take one or even keep rolling or usually call Take 2 is up as clapper loaders are

used to working to order from "superiors"

 

mike

[pkautzsch]

Definitely a film vs. files thing.

If we cut before a slate, and scripty insists on staying on the same take, it seems more logical to rename the "false start" file, and to keep the clapped file named as told by scripty. The false start would then be named 017A T01 F (for false), and should be stated as false take in the Notes field. I don't delete anything, and I don't even like to use the 788T's False Take functionality since this gives you double file names (just in different folders).

 

And, for the sake of repetition: The important thing is to have proper reports and notes.

[Andrej H]

The important thing is to have proper reports and notes.

 

I am a newbie to film world but I can only agree... (I am a quick learner out of necessity and try to pick up all the good advice and best practice how not to be in the way of established workflow of the whole crew or even contribute to an easier going around the process)

 

I don't delete anything, just note and mark false starts and similar as such and let the others decide what to write on the slate.... I use simple file names - like D20_0006 - meaning - sixth recorded file on day 20 - I don't name the files during the shooting - usually there is not much time to fiddle with that anyway - I just leave the consecutive file numbers and all the takes from one day in one folder...

 

When they look at my files and notes they have those easy legible file names and take info on the report - if there was no slate - I marked it as such - if I recorded just sound for post use and no video was recorded for that file - I mark it as such - like "ambience", "footsteps for foley"... "scratch off lines", etc. - very easy to understand and no weird and long file names... I believe in paper I guess...  

[Derek Mansvelt]

For me its standard, if the slate was clapped-we move on to the next take, if not we False start. Some of the older script supervisors will even have the loader add AFS to the slate and call "after false start" when we do the take. Occasionally the problem s that the Daily Production Reports have to many takes and the heat comes down on the director then we are told to "false start" any non takes even if Action has been called.

Roll with the punches and we all survive to the end 

[Christopher Mills]

Well... I would be using the note space in the metadata... and am likely to say "slated as" in the notes for my 2nd, 3rd, etc files until we get to the next letter.. then my notes to post would reflect this.

so.. my files for that scene number would disagree with scripty... sorry... editor might find a use for part of either sound or picture on that, esp since camera isn't going to delete that file..

[rich]

For me its standard, if the slate was clapped-we move on to the next take, if not we False start. Some of the older script supervisors will even have the loader add AFS to the slate and call "after false start" when we do the take. Occasionally the problem s that the Daily Production Reports have to many takes and the heat comes down on the director then we are told to "false start" any non takes even if Action has been called.

Roll with the punches and we all survive to the end 

got to worry about people looking at a production report saying we are doing too many takes in that situation, then putting pressure on to make life on set that little bit more complicated just to say we are only doing 3 takes at most per setup.

 

but im probably only saying that as it hasnt yet happened on a job that i am on.

[RPSharman]

You're wrong.

No sticks no take. That's why the pro machines have a false start. The editors would go crazy if every clip and false start was given a take number. It would also drive directors crazy who don't like a lot of takes on their production reports. It doesn't matter if 5 of 7 were false starts. It would show as 7 takes. And let's not forget ADs who call rolling to hurry things along, even when several departments aren't ready.

And most importantly, the script supervisor is in charge of what goes on the slate. He/she can call it whatever they want. You follow them. They're a department head, just like you. You ought not to argue their job with them.

Robert

[Chris Durfy]

+1 for Sticks = Next take. No sticks = False take.

[rich]

so, for clarification.

say its supposed to be an end board, we run the take and it is good, but in the heat of the moment, things are cut before the board gets put on, so no sticks are banged in front of a rolling camera.

still on to the next take?

[chriskellett]

RVD beat me to it, IMHO  It is their job, not your job, to decide what goes on the slate and when. Make it a "false take" if they so chose and move on, it is very easy to do on your PIX240. I can't imagine this being an issue worth spending any extra time on set even talking about it. To be honest, in the post world as you know, things are now sync'd via TC so who cares what your file is called.  They will be able to find it with no issues what so ever if they ever choose to use it. 

[Angelo Waldron]

 

 

Is my theory of film vs digital editing work flow correct? 

 

Thanks everyone..

-Richard

 I consider "film vs digital" editing the same. Both recorded linear and both edited non-linear. Think about it... Picture and track edited on a flatbed can be cut out, spliced back together... unlike tape to tape editing where you would have to re-record everything from that edit point.

 

I take offense to the term "Crusty Old Scripty"........ you might want to drop that line of thinking, and be happy you have someone that knows what they are doing.

[soundtrane]

<Like some 'sound people' who dont' know their Axx from their elbow, there are also Directors, Producers, DPs, editors, and... Scriptys!>

 

I am quoting myself, i know... 

 

Like some 'sound people' who KNOW their Axx from their elbow, there are also Directors, Producers, DPs, editors, and... Scriptys! 

 

[   maybe rare nowadays though...   ]

[Richard Ragon]

You're wrong.

No sticks no take. That's why the pro machines have a false start. The editors would go crazy if every clip and false start was given a take number. It would also drive directors crazy who don't like a lot of takes on their production reports. It doesn't matter if 5 of 7 were false starts. It would show as 7 takes. And let's not forget ADs who call rolling to hurry things along, even when several departments aren't ready.

And most importantly, the script supervisor is in charge of what goes on the slate. He/she can call it whatever they want. You follow them. They're a department head, just like you. You ought not to argue their job with them.

Robert

 

My Pro machine may have a false start, but the camera files are still there because the camera department is NOT going to do their false start.

 

And, yes, I understand that the script supervisor is the ultimate file organizer, so it's their call.

[chriskellett]

Don't worry about the camera department and their files, again, what they do with their stuff is not your concern. They are not making the files match, name wise, what is on the slate so relax.  Have the DIT transfer your False take file along with your other work and post will be able to match it with TC if they want sound for the take. 

[Richard Ragon]

 I consider "film vs digital" editing the same. Both recorded linear and both edited non-linear. Think about it... Picture and track edited on a flatbed can be cut out, spliced back together... unlike tape to tape editing where you would have to re-record everything from that edit point.

 

I take offense to the term "Crusty Old Scripty"........ you might want to drop that line of thinking, and be happy you have someone that knows what they are doing.

 

Angelo,  There ARE distinct work flows for digital vs film..  The difference is this..  Digital is a file made at the time of creation. Once you stop recording the file is finished and it's a separate entity.  Film is one long reel all in a line.  The difference is this.. what determines a take is the recorder in the digital world while on set, as opposed to in the film world where the assistant editor in the post workflow cut what he thinks are the takes.  In other words, the takes are created in production on digital, and the takes are created in post in the film world.

 

And the term "Crusty Old Scripty", is a term of affection (right here) while referring to that person.. The actual person was a nice 40yo women.

[Christopher Mills]

Around here, some folks consider "Scripty" to be a belittling term on its own....

[Richard Ragon]

Don't worry about the camera department and their files, again, what they do with their stuff is not your concern. They are not making the files match, name wise, what is on the slate so relax.  Have the DIT transfer your False take file along with your other work and post will be able to match it with TC if they want sound for the take. 

 

No worries.. it all comes out in the wash, so to speak. I understand that either way, I'm getting my sound on the film..

 

What I'm asking is if my theories about what we would consider a 'take' are correct.

 

Thanks for the feedback everyone..

[Richard Ragon]

Around here, some folks consider "Scripty" to be a belittling term on its own....

 

If someone called me a soundie.. I wouldn't take it badly.  In fact, many times on set someone will say, "sound".. and not my name. I understand, it's a new crew.. we might not know each others names yet.. I don't take it personally.

[atheisticmystic]

I was just informed last week that "scripty" is not always heard the way I thought it was; a new script supervisor told me that instructor Randi Feldman despises the term.

[Wyatt Tuzo]

Beyond what many have said here, I would try to remind yourself that Script Supervisors are generally hired well before a Mixer is, and have a very special and important relationship with the director. ... You know how they sit next to the director?... You know how they get a nice chair-back with their name embroidered on it for each gig?... I would advise you not to argue their job with them too much (especially in this case, where she was totally correct). I've seen Script Supervisors have certain crew members replaced in the past. I wouldn't underestimate their influence.