Rental - Do You Include Timecode Generators?

[TomBoisseau]

 

I'm curious what you guys do.  Do you include a certain number of timecode generators in your package rate, or do you charge extra?

 

Thanks,

Tom

[soundtown]

2 lavs and a boom , with 1 lock it and slate - was the standard around 750/day 

+but this year have started to not include the first lockit and charge a la carte per camera

  

inflation is crushing us, keeping gear rates the same they were in 2010 is not gonna cut it 

[PMC]

Absolutely charge for your TC lock boxes. It's fine to offer a package discount for multi-day shoots but we have to make a reasonable ROI of our gear or it doesn't make sense to be in business. Some people think they have to offer the gear (free) just to get the job. That is not good business sense IMO.

 

Charge for every piece of gear and reflect it on your invoice so you can keep track of what gear is paying for itself and what gear was a poor investment. It also educates the client on real costs in case you offer a muti-day discount. 

 

All of my purchases in the past 15 years have paid for themselves in the first year of ownership except for very expensive mics and a camera comms system. That includes, cameras, lights, mixers. I don't buy the Cadillac level of gear and I sometimes buy used because it makes sense for my market and my business. 

 

I charge $50/day for my Denecke TC Slate. It is 22 years old and still works great. I charge $20/day for each Tentacle and $30 for Denecke Tri-level.

 

Wait, I lied. I don't charge for cables, lol, but I figure they are part of the piece of gear.

 

Perform a ROI analysis of your gear. Charge at least 5% of the replacement cost for your rental cost. This works for me on everything except those darn expensive wireless mics.

 

 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

I include two.  They've become necessary / expected equipment for most workflows now, and I'd rather not deal with blowback from post if production cheaps out on them.  My kit rate went up when I started including them.

Here's another piece of math:  25% of the replacement value of my kit is cases, cables, adaptors, accessories, or mounting equipment (i.e. equipment I can't reasonably charge as a line item rental).  Until recently, it was closer to 50% ... and the reason it went down is because I've purchased a bunch of discretionary / backup equipment (mainly microphones) which make my life easier, or allow me to move more quickly, but which are at best occasional rentals.  My typical "working" kit that I'm able to charge a rental on is probably a quarter of the full value of what I carry with me.

By PMC's standards, I have no doubt I'm overspending on equipment, but most of what I carry makes me either able to a handle more situations or able to work more quickly and efficiently.  And I carry some absolute money-losers as well (I will never earn back my custom breakout cable for the original RED cam).

Anyway, my point is not to highlight the fact that I'm carrying too much around with me, but to point out that the gear that *does* pay the bills needs to cover a significant portion of "freeriding" equipment as well.  How big that portion is depends on how big a spender you are / how much you feed your gear habit, but it's always there, so it's a good idea to build the markup into your pricing if you can.  My timecode boxes pay for themselves in about a month of rentals.  After that, they start paying for all the f*%#($ timecode cables I need to keep up with the latest cameras.

[TomBoisseau]

Currently, in the Atlanta area, I'm charging $250 for my basic "kit" which includes a Sound Devices 688, 2 wireless, boom mic & boom pole, and 2 IFB's.  Anything more than that is an additional charge, and services are in addition to that as well.  How does that compare with you guys?

[Derek H]

I’m in Chicago and we’re typically at 450-500 for that kit. 

[BAB414]

On bigger shows in NY, I find that generally production gets their first 2 lockits along with their camera rental from the camera rental house. If I'm hired early enough, I try to sell them on using mine for an additional charge.

 

For the smaller/corporate stuff, I'm hearing around $500/day is the norm just for mixer/recorder, boom and 2 lavs. No TC or IFB. And the base rate seems to be steadily rising.

 

I'm really happy about the transparency we're seeing with kit rentals these days.  Just a few years ago, people seemed to be publicly keeping their info close to the chest which wasn't actually helping anybody.

[Philip Perkins]

It's worth it to ask if they want them?  On many low-end small-cam jobs they don't understand or use TC as it would come from a Lockit etc..

[OB1]

3 hours ago, TomBoisseau said:

Currently, in the Atlanta area, I'm charging $250 for my basic "kit" which includes a Sound Devices 688, 2 wireless, boom mic & boom pole, and 2 IFB's.  Anything more than that is an additional charge, and services are in addition to that as well.  How does that compare with you guys?

 

On behalf of atlanta based krewe, that is very low for that kit. About 1/2 of what clients will pay for that kit. It was that going rate maybe 10+ years ago...

[DonovanBomb]

This is a feature vs benefit sales topic where we sound mixers might inadvertently devalue a product by selling a gear rental instead of selling the benefit.  I offer "camera sync" at $100/camera for the first 2 and then $50 for each additional.  Try to avoid telling them what camera hops or TC boxes you use because they don't care.  Getting it done with two boxes on camera or a device that does both doesn't matter to them.  I haven't seen it in awhile but started getting productions trying to provide their own Tentacle Syncs because their video editors were asking for them and they're only around $200 each.  What works for me is telling them I'll provide whatever the camera accepts - that their editor will be happy having every option that was available.  Usually by this point in the booking conversation they've already decided on you and just need to fit within budget so won't care that they're paying $100/day for a Tentacle when all they're thinking about is total cost.

[Sandor Gyurkovics]

Client dependent….350 down to about 150 for the mentioned kit in vancouver. Bottom end being a favour or a no budget thing you just really want to do.  Average closer to 250-300 id say. I like to put all the  gear as a line item on the invoice when possible, amd then show discounts if any. Teaching moment for producers. I would include one sync box and charge beyond that. If 2 or 3 were rolled into the cost i would aim for the high end of rates…or higher if i can get it, as that also means more hops amd comteks. 

[PMC]

$420 is my rock bottom for SD664, 2 lectro wireless lavs, Schoeps boom, G4 mono hop, 1 comtek, 1 TC box.

 

$300 without Comtek and hop.

[Dalton Patterson]

Why don’t we all agree to push a National rate that is determined by the highest rental rate? $100 per camera??? Any nay sayers. I’m looking at you Iowa 😜. I’m sure with the hive mind we could come up with some strategies to get your rate up! 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

If Hollywood can charge most favoured nation in their licensing agreements, surely so can we!

[JonG]

I’ve spoken with a lot of mixers all over the country, consulted many rate cards, and as of 2023 most people are charging $500/day for a basic package, that includes a mixer, two wireless, and a boom mic. Everything else is à la carte. Also most people are billing their day rate on a ten hour day instead of a 12. National average is $800/10h. Let’s make this normal. 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

If $800/10h is "average", wouldn't it also be "normal"?

[tourtelot]

Just a sincere question.  Does it make sense that an (in-town) producer would pay less in Iowa (for everything) than an in-town producer in LA?

 

I haven't billed-out in the motion picture industry in many years but I ALWAYS made more when I worked in LA or NYC than I ever did in Seattle.

 

So I would guess it would always be good to know where home-base was for the hiring producer as that might give some indication of what they would consider "normal".  Not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have a "national rate" but even IATSE soundmen get better rates in LA/NYC than elsewhere.

 

$1800 for a 10-hour day with a simple package sounds pretty acceptable but it isn't much more than it was "back when" for me IIRC.  I wish gasoline had only gone up that much.  But maybe I wasn't so aware of billing for the extras since I mostly did long-form.  For those jobs, a "kit was a kit" for the most part.  I do remember some big Comtek rentals on some national spots, haha!

 

D.

[Sandor Gyurkovics]

Sounds like i should move to the US. i don’t know any producers that would pay 500 for a 2 wire kit in vancouver, no matter how hard i try. But we push as hard as we can

[Johnny Karlsson]

1 hour ago, tourtelot said:

Just a sincere question.  Does it make sense that an (in-town) producer would pay less in Iowa (for everything) than an in-town producer in LA?

 

I haven't billed-out in the motion picture industry in many years but I ALWAYS made more when I worked in LA or NYC than I ever did in Seattle.

 

So I would guess it would always be good to know where home-base was for the hiring producer as that might give some indication of what they would consider "normal".  Not to say that it wouldn't be nice to have a "national rate" but even IATSE soundmen get better rates in LA/NYC than elsewhere.

 

$1800 for a 10-hour day with a simple package sounds pretty acceptable but it isn't much more than it was "back when" for me IIRC.  I wish gasoline had only gone up that much.  But maybe I wasn't so aware of billing for the extras since I mostly did long-form.  For those jobs, a "kit was a kit" for the most part.  I do remember some big Comtek rentals on some national spots, haha!

 

D.

The living costs are arguably higher in LA and NY than in most places. Take a look at house prices, or monthly rent for small apartments. 

Or even compare gas prices. I did a job in Atlanta once, and I overheard a couple people on the local crew talking about how “crazy high” the gas price was getting. I was thinking to myself; wow, it’s at least $2 LESS per gallon than it is in LA….

[PMC]

Tourtalot,

I charge an Iowa producer the same as I charge an LA producer. Plus labor portal to portal and mileage. A boom mic costs me the same $ no matter where I use it or for whom I use it. If a low budget producer can't afford my good super cardioid booms then I can offer them my 30 year old Senny ME-80. It was an entry level shotgun but still sounds better than the newer ME-66.

 

I offer different levels of gear for different budgets. I charge more for newer and more expensive gear. Except those darn expensive wireless mics. Here in Iowa I can't break the $50ea. ceiling. I have to factor in ROI and what the market can bare in my charges. 

 

I frequently see job postings on Mandy and Staff Me Up with ridiculously low rates and 12hr days from LA and NY producers for national cable shows. When these shows call me and tell me they work 12hr days I say that's fine. It's my 10hr rate plus 2hrs of OT. Some balk at that some don't. If I am working for a signatory it is an 8hr day plus OT because I am union.

 

I really don't like to turn producers down and I truly understand that they can only spend what is in the budget (unlike our federal government) but when a producer tells me they only have $900/day for 12hr labor, 4 lavs, boom, comteks, etc., I tell them they have called the wrong guy and I need to get back to waxing my boat.

Labor rates fluctuate, of course, based on whether it is a non-union or union job.

 

Dalton,

$100 per camera? I don't get your drift. I am happy with my gear rates except for wireless lavs, as mentioned before. All my gear is paid off and continues to realize a free and clear income along with allowing me to replace the fiddly bits that break off. This happens more and more as I get... as the gear gets older.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

5 hours ago, PMC said:

I offer different levels of gear for different budgets. I charge more for newer and more expensive gear.

Doesn't that mean maintaining a second inventory of "cheap gear" for cheap producers?  That sounds like it would cost me more.  Plus, I'd rather not put my name on work using inferior gear if I can help it.  I prefer to be expensive, and choose to offer discounts to projects that are worth supporting.

[PMC]

My less sophisticated gear still functions as it did many years ago; senny G2 and G3 wireless, clunky big TC boxes, beta snake instead of wireless hops, etc. I didn't buy lesser gear to have a lower tear. They simply became the lower tear as I graduated into professional level gear (I don't have top of the line Zax or the latest Lectro or an SD888). Plus the client is still getting my expertise as a location sound mixer, electronics technician with meters and a solder gun (that is what I went to collage for) or second camera op with camera.

 

The rental of the old stuff facilitated the purchase of the new. I have never taken out a bank loan to purchase gear or work vehicles. That goes for my three cameras, drone, many lights, LiveU, my 1.5-ton Ram Promaster G&E van package, mixers, mics, etc. I paid cash for it all from the income as I grew my business and made purchases within my means.  Other business models work for other people. My way isn't brilliant or the only way. 

 

I simply like offering producers different levels of investment to hopefully meet their budget constraints.

 

As a business owner, I need to educate my client what their hiring of me and my gear will offer them over hiring someone less expensive with less experience or lesser gear. 

 

Too many times I have heard, "It's just sound. I don't have a lot of money for you." Or, "If those are your rates, I might as well bring my sound person with me." I say, "Yes, you should bring your sound person with you." This is the only way we are going to raise our non-union rates plus we have to pay for those soddingly expensive wireless mics. Have I mentioned how disproportionally expensive wireless mics are? I think maybe I have.

 

 

The Doc Sound Guy,

Yes, I offer discounts to multi-day shoots and worthy causes but I don't like "throwing things in." Not that you do. 

 

I itemize everything so the client sees the value and depth of gear that I am using on their project. Then I apply a discount if i so choose.  When I have my vehicle serviced I want to see an itemized estimate and invoice. An invoice simply stating $xxx.xx labor and $xxx.xx parts would be completely unacceptable to me.

[tourtelot]

 

"I charge an Iowa producer the same as I charge an LA producer."

 

I am not sure that I was understood.  I am not questioning what you charge but saying that producers from different areas are used to, and willing to, pay more for the same work.  That is to say, an LA producer might happily pay $1800/day for sound because that is what he typically pays.  The local producer in the midwest does not pay that rate typically and probably won't.  That's all.

 

And yes Johnny.  The reason that LA/NYC producers are willing to pay more is because, of course, COL is way higher in those towns.  Crews need more money to live there, gas is more expensive, so are groceries.  So no crew can work there without making a certain amount of money, and if they all moved to Iowa where they could live on less, there would be no crew in LA/NYC.  Pretty simple.

 

So my point was, maybe if you live in Iowa and charge LA producers what you charge local producers, you are leaving money on the table.

 

Just my $.02 and probably a guess even then.

 

D.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

1 hour ago, PMC said:

Yes, I offer discounts to multi-day shoots and worthy causes but I don't like "throwing things in."

I think @DonovanBomb described the approach that I prefer:  Billing for capabilities ("benefits") rather than equipment ("features").  Identifying capabilities (and upselling rentals based on "special capabilities) is a really important part of my sales process.  So, my equipment invoice looks like:

• Basic interview package
• Playback package
• Wireless mics for additional 2 cast
• Extra camera sync w/ scratch track - Sony FX7
• Additional headsets x 3

rather than this:

• Zaxcom Nova
• 2x Zaxcom ZMT4
• Sennheiser MKH60
• Sennheiser MKH50
• Denon Envoi battery-powered PA
• MS Surface laptop
• 3x Deity TC-1
• 5x Zaxcom URX

Both of those describe the same equipment package (more or less), but the capability-based list describes what the producer actual needs, and the equipment list describes the equipment that I use to satisfy those needs.  I've found it very useful and important not to discuss actual equipment, both because producers don't know or care what equipment I use (they are hiring me to bring that knowledge), and because it prevents nickel-and-diming from producers who don't understand why I need a Sennheiser MKH50 when I'm already charging them for a different boom mic.  It also prevents them from trying to force me to use equipment that they already own, or rent elsewhere for "cheaper".

An important part of this concept for me is making sure my "base" equipment package covers most common scenarios and I'm only adding line items when producers are asking for capabilities that are clearly atypical (and thus easy to upsell).  That means I do "throw in" a bit more into my base kit (i.e. timecode boxes, 2x IFB), and I do my best to charge accordingly, though I'm in the same market as @Sandor Gyurkovics, and I struggle to get the kind of rates that have been described here as "typical".

The price I charge for my "basic kit" is expensive for my area because it contains more than just 2-wires-and-a-boom.  The advantage for me is that I get a more consistently high rental rate even on very basic gigs.  I get paid a good minimum, even on gigs that decide the don't need IFBs or timecode boxes ... and I save myself a lot of arguments when directors or other crew show up on set expecting these things even though the producer may not have approved them.

The one place I agree it's essential to charge by the piece is wireless.  Wireless is so expensive that it really needs the extra piece rentals to pay for it, and even then it's a challenge to pay off more than about 6 channels in a reasonable timeframe.  I'm lucky in that the going rate here is $75-$100 / channel (CAD, but still an improvement over Iowa rates it sounds like).

[PMC]

Tourtalot,

I think I get you. I don't work in LA or NY. I work mainly in the Midwest 5-state area for producers from all over the world so while I typically get over a $1,100/day for what I call a basic package, plus expenses, I would expect more in LA and NY. I live where you can buy a 1600 sq.ft. ranch house on a double lot for $220,000. Where your kids can ride their bike all over town and not fear that they are going to be shot. 

 

I moved here from Illinois for the quality of life.

 

The Doc Sound Guy,

I don't list the brand or model on the invoice I hand the client but they are visible to me in QuickBooks. Then linked to a spreadsheet where I can see the ROI.