Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) Here would be a good place to discuss the importance of patents, innovation, competition and the law. For the most part we are unaware of these issues in our world of sound recording but occasionally there is the need for discussion. Also, there are those like myself that really enjoy discussions of these things historically and how some of the larger cases have affected some of the technology and tools we use (for example the legendary Sony Betamax vs. VHS issue). -moved from Sonosax SX-R4+ topic thread: dolo72 has said:Also Aaton cantars have always used a similar system and they have been around longer than neverclip. Lisala …………………………………………………………………………………………………. Patrick Tresch has said:Arri uses a similar method in their Alexa cameras as I read. (low and high gain combination) "Arri use dual 14-bit A/D converters, low/high gain, to 16 bits of data then stored in 12bit LOG arri raw." …………………………………………………………………………………………………. Patrick, what Arri is doing does not relate in any way to this issue. The use of dual sets of A to D converters is not new and is not something that anybody or any company has patented. What IS patented, at this time by Zaxcom, is the manner in which the signal is handled in a system utilizing multiple A to D converters. To Lisala, I am not aware of Cantar using any system which would infringe on anyone's patent. You must have some inside information that no one else knows. Edited September 14, 2015 by Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 There seems to be another instance of this with audio ltd's 1010 system. In the IPS video talking to Kish, he demonstrates a recorder in the transmitters and explains that this wouldn't be available to US customers, again, I assume this is due to Zaxcom's US patents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Yes, you are right. Zaxcom has a patent on recording wireless transmitters so the new Audio, Ltd. digital wireless 1010s will not have recording capability in the US models. The 1010s look really good and they are the first affordable fully digital wireless available other than the Zaxcom line of full digital wireless. The record capability will be available outside the US and even without it, in the US, I think the Audio, Ltds will be a real contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) I have wireless bound to my camera does this infringe Zaxcom patent? Edited September 14, 2015 by Patrick Tresch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 I have wireless bound to my camera does this infringe Zaxcom patent? Not at all, why would you ask? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) Ok so the patent is on sound recorder that transmits a signal. Basically like every sound bag that sends a guide sound to the camera, directors headphone, video village, ... ? Trying to figure it out. ;-) Edited September 14, 2015 by Patrick Tresch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) No, the patent is not on a sound recorder that transmits a signal. I will find the copy of the patent and send it to you so you can read it and understand it for yourself. The patent actually covers quite a bit more ground than just wireless transmitter recording capability. There are procedures and definitions of time and timecode synchronization amongst multiple units, virtual multitrack system, body worn devices, etc. Nothing to do with distributing a signal to a camera, director's headphones and so forth, so don't worry. Edited September 14, 2015 by Jeff Wexler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Yes, you are right. Zaxcom has a patent on recording wireless transmitters so the new Audio, Ltd. digital wireless 1010s will not have recording capability in the US models. The 1010s look really good and they are the first affordable fully digital wireless available other than the Zaxcom line of full digital wireless. The record capability will be available outside the US and even without it, in the US, I think the Audio, Ltds will be a real contender. Exactly. I think people has been confused. Audio Ltd 1010 will be available in US territory; not the recording feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Robinson Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Here are a few links to Zaxcom patents: Virtual Multitrack http://www.google.com/patents/US7711443 NeverClip (and other processes) https://www.google.com/patents/US8878708 Not the lightest reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Here are a few links to Zaxcom patents: Virtual Multitrack http://www.google.com/patents/US7711443 NeverClip (and other processes) https://www.google.com/patents/US8878708 Not the lightest reading. Patents never are... it is not a perfect system, the patent system, not by any means. I have read many of the more esoteric and somewhat ridiculous patents from the past from major companies. Any search for patents applied for, granted or denied, from companies like Apple and Microsoft --- it is mind boggling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dolo72 Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 Good move Jeff - I just checked with a friend who is a diehard Cantar user ( and had Some design input on the x3 ) and he corrected me it was a three amplifier block mic amp to increase headroom not a multi stage AD converter type set up. Given how expensive international patent law is I can only imagine it's not worth it right now for Sonosax. Lisala Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 NeverClip patent is so specific on how gain is handled that it must be really a big coincidence to get to the point of patent infringement! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted September 14, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 NeverClip patent is so specific on how gain is handled that it must be really a big coincidence to get to the point of patent infringement! The patent IS so specific and coincidence doesn't even figure into it. Even if Sonosax developed a manner in which the gain is handled without any knowledge of the specific way that Zaxcom does it (and patented the process), and that process is coincidentally the same as Zaxcom's, it is potentially a patent violation.Ignorance of a patented or proprietary technology does not give you the right to use it. We have to assume that the engineers at Sonosax know what they have designed and they have determined that it infringes on Zaxcom's patent in the US. There are 3 ways that this could have been resolved: 1. Sonosax could re-design their input to handle the gain in a manner that is not the same as Zaxcom's specific and patented process, 2. Zaxcom could license the patented technology to Sonosax for use in their recorder sold in the United States, or 3. Do not market the recorder in the US. Sonosax appears to have opted for number 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted September 14, 2015 Report Share Posted September 14, 2015 (edited) I don't know... Perhaps Jacques Sax will chime in? Edited September 14, 2015 by Patrick Tresch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McL Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 I intuit some patent-related unhappiness generally, but specifically related to a product I use. Want to sprinkle that salt while I try to remain unbiased. Should I ever get a new brain and invent something extraordinary and innovative, I hope my friends and family follow me around with a stick to bop me in the head until I get it patented. PSM Bill Daly had one regret: that he didn't patent with Bernard Fox the time code slate and system to sync multiple cameras to multi-track music recordings. I think he thought about that every day of his life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 I applied for a few patents. Wish me luck... (: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarcanon Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 The sad reality is that registering the patent is only half the battle. You then have to have the financial resources to exploit that patent, and more importantly, defend that patent. Imagine owning a patent on a technology or process that Google or Apple decide they invented, or something close to it. Realistically, you won't have a chance. That's why many patents registered by individuals and small entities end being sold off to patent trolls, who accumulate massive portfolios amassed solely for the purpose of being able to ruthlessly sue others, small and large alike. Our patent system is very badly broken and desperately needs reform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Cameron Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 The sad reality is that registering the patent is only half the battle. You then have to have the financial resources to exploit that patent, and more importantly, defend that patent. Imagine owning a patent on a technology or process that Google or Apple decide they invented, or something close to it. Realistically, you won't have a chance. That's why many patents registered by individuals and small entities end being sold off to patent trolls, who accumulate massive portfolios amassed solely for the purpose of being able to ruthlessly sue others, small and large alike. Our patent system is very badly broken and desperately needs reform. Wow..almost renders pursuing a good idea...not worth it. That's frightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Well there's ideas, and then there's the business of ideas. We all have ideas and try to implement them and even sometimes think they are marketable. But.... I already have a job that I love so why would I want to go play with lawyers and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rachel Cameron Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Parts of this job actually deal quite directly with law. So it's good not to play with any of it ~ but be informed about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Is the wheel patented? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 (edited) Is the wheel patented? it may have been, back in the day. Depends on if they had patent laws back then already, which I doubt. In any case, patents typically expire after 20 years Edited September 15, 2015 by Constantin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfisk Posted September 15, 2015 Report Share Posted September 15, 2015 Is the wheel patented? You can't patent something that already exists, and since the wheel has been around long before patent law then I would bet a good amount of money that the answer is "no". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) Is the wheel patented? Red now has a high-res 8K wheel that is claimed to be the sharpest wheel on the market. I would bet that it's heavily patented. Edited September 16, 2015 by Marc Wielage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 You can't patent something that already exists, and since the wheel has been around long before patent law then I would bet a good amount of money that the answer is "no". You can patent a new use for stuff that exist... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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