Customer Service degrade..

[studiomprd]

so, CHAOS happens, too...

but that doesn't mean it's good movie-making

Edited October 25, 2011 by studiomprd

[johnpaul215]

Wouldn't your stomach drop if you and the boom operator had been recording a lovely wide master, then the 1st AD says, "Turning around!" You say, "Aren't we getting a tight shot?" To which the AD replies, "We zoomed in on take 3. We have it."

Robert

I worked on that movie! No monitor for me because production wouldn't spring for a down converter in the RED package. The DP had a zoom lens. He didn't cut between different angles of a take, and would zoom on some, so he had his closeups covered. No resulting or anything. Add to that madness that we had a few days of 2 camera tight + wide shooting. Offhand one wide was so wide you could see over the roof of a little house while 2 people sat on the porch (and we were along a major road that was framed out to make it look rural). The other camera shot the coverage. My boom op was a slate mic. Ugh.

Maybe monitors are more important now because there is less structure on *most* sets. I've had some cases where not having a monitor screwed me. I would have been ok if there was communication, but that's just not always going to happen.

[studiomprd]

" I worked on that movie "

Has anyone ever seen it ??

" The DP had ... "

any real experience ??

" production wouldn't spring for a... "

tripping over dollars to save dimes ??

" 2 camera tight + wide shooting "

style over substance ??

Sounds like this project suffered from (amongst other things) unrealistic budget, unreasonable expectations, and lack of experience.

Communications is required, as movie making is a team sport. A TV for sound, while helpful and appropriate, is not a substitute for doing it right. The results probably spoke volumes.

[Eric Toline]

I worked on that movie! No monitor for me because production wouldn't spring for a down converter in the RED package. The DP had a zoom lens. He didn't cut between different angles of a take, and would zoom on some, so he had his closeups covered. No resulting or anything. Add to that madness that we had a few days of 2 camera tight + wide shooting. Offhand one wide was so wide you could see over the roof of a little house while 2 people sat on the porch (and we were along a major road that was framed out to make it look rural). The other camera shot the coverage. My boom op was a slate mic. Ugh.

Maybe monitors are more important now because there is less structure on *most* sets. I've had some cases where not having a monitor screwed me. I would have been ok if there was communication, but that's just not always going to happen.

Compare the cost of a multi use of a 64gb CF card to the cost of one time use 1,000 ft rolls of 35mm film and you'll have your answer.

Eric

[David Levine]

M

T. KJ-

Pocket Reply. Stupid IPhone.

[afewmoreyears]

Just like the old days.....

I like a monitor to give a heads up to my boom op that already knows whats going on... I just like working him...

It's an aid.... simple enough... Actually i mostly use it to make sure the slate monkeys are not GLARING it out, or mis-slating or me having the wrong scene and take info... even worse, one of them has turned the unit off and re set it trying in vain to adjust the brightness... or simply to look at the pretty gals....

Can it make a scene more pleasurable to mix when you can see... for me yes for some reason... I do like a monitor... I have just upgraded (kidding) to a Haier $39 monitor that I love!!! I still have my real one, but this damn Haier is the bomb... we'll see how long it lasts.... batteries/AC... inputs... and it's a TV in Football season!!!

Can I mix 7 mics with no monitor... yes... because if you are paying attention, your probably staring at pages not pictures... and if your in track monkey ISO mode, who cares.... make sure they all register data, are noise free and are operating properly.... what else can you do.... ask the reality guys... (of which I am NOT one)...

So in closing, of course you can do it either way, as with all our gear and ways to operate it, there are many options, many ways.. to each their own...

Love the spicy content though.... just like old times....

[old school]

I'm not against any tool one needs to make the recording a success. I am against blanket statements that are not true.

We could all come up with endless scenarios where we need this or that and we could come up with countless workarounds if we didn't have the tool we think we need. It is all about problem solving. Always has been that way. Always will be. Change is the only constant in life n the film biz.

CrewC

BTW, I too like a little fire now and again.

[Marc Wielage]

--Marc W.

[Izen Ears]

Dear Mr. Izen,

I am here to meet and accept your challenge of mixing with no monitor or your current show in New Orleans. I can garantee you I wouldn't "fuck it up...."

Please send me plane ticket and I will gladly furnish you with one after I take over your show with my superior skills at mixing, rather than watching television while I'm supposed to be mixing sound.

I've mixed plenty of shows with no monitors, because I'm paid to listen not to watch the performance.

Just because that's how it's done now doesn't make it the right and only way to mix sound.

I need to watch my meters for the levels that I'm recording at and to focus my listening to what it is I'm hearing, not distract myself with watching actors on screen and blindly pushing faders all around.

I'll be waiting for my ticket and your next fucking smart ass remarks

Richard Van Dyke, CAS

I'm not purchasing a ticket for you although I would love to meet you RVD I think we'd get along, I was making a point more so than an offer. I like to stir things up, obviously, but I stand behind my words: you and the other complainers who don't need their monitors can just button it up. You're putting down my way of mixing. I don't talk shit about your styles do I? You state that you've mixed "plenty of shows without monitor" and so have I, but those were different kinds of jobs. The kinds of jobs I've been are different from yours, at least looking at your IMDB page this is true, and sadly on these gigs my mixes suffer profoundly if I am without a picture. Are you seriously telling me that you mixed 5 episodes of the Crash TV series with no picture?! Did you?

Maybe it's because it's only my 9th year, and maybe you could use your "superior skills at mixing" and pull it off but then again you've been doing this shit since before I was 6 years old. But please Rich, come here and show me; take a vacation! The weather just got nice here. In fact I'm having oral surgery the day after tomorrow (Thu 9/27) are you available?

To Crew you clearly misunderstand me. You state that I need a monitor to mix and that is not what I said, nor did I ever state anything resembling that it was "impossible to mix" without picture. What I admitted to is that my mixes generally suffer when I don't have picture, and I was specifically referencing the TV gigs I've been on for the past two years. I'm sorry that I was not clear about this, although it seems many others got what I was saying. In these jobs in my heart I know for a fact that you, RVD, or anybody would get better mix tracks with a picture. But you'll just have to come prove it to me to convince me otherwise won't you?

Mike Michaels I do not watch TV, my eyes are all over the script and the levels, although generally my ears and the feeling of where the faders are sitting give me the heads up on my iso levels being proper.

Open invitation people, you can have the day rate and I'll stand at the village and see just how superior your mixes are. In fact I'd love to be proven wrong and witness how you really nail it. It would be a privilege to see and I'll have no problem admitting I was wrong.

Final though is that no one answered my question about how many sound Oscars were won in the last 10 years without a monitor. I thought for sure that cocky statement would get refuted...

Here's to stirring shit up and going off-topic!

Dan Izen

[old school]

You people who "complain" about us "whiners" have to know that in "some areas" of union motion picture production we have no rehearsals and are often placed far from set and no matter how great the information we get is, it is IMPOSSIBLE to make a decent mix without an image to cue from. So stop whining about us whining arite?! Really, just stop.

Dan Izen

This is what I based my thought process and response on Dan.

CrewC

[Mirror]

First of all, please re-read your post and see that there is some racism peppered in with your angry rant. People in Bangladesh are no more likely to be incompetent than an American customer service representative.

I read and re-read his post and didn't smell any peppery racism. Your second sentence above is what you said, the OP never said it nor inferred it. Perhaps you should look within yourself?

And I'm not ultra-sensitive PC guy.

Oh really? Your accusations say otherwise.

[RPSharman]

Oh really? Your accusations say otherwise.

I stand by my comments, and sign my real name to them.

[Richard Ragon]

I agree both ways guys.. I've mixed with both with and without. But, once you go with proper monitors, it's hard to go without. Monitors are NOT just for frame and (boom in).. But it's also for TC slate, in which I check every take if I can catch it. Boom shadows and reflections too. The production really appreciates you bringing another set of eyes to the picture.

But like I said.. Just a tool, and a tool to make you (or the production) a better film, IMHO.

-Richard

[taylormadeaudio]

...The weather just got nice here. In fact I'm having oral surgery the day after tomorrow (Thu 9/27) are you available?...

Dan Izen

I am ; )

[RPSharman]

"I like to watch."

[Eric Toline]

Somewhat on topic to this debate, years ago I was in the Capitol Records studio on 46th st in NYC. I asked the chief engineer (Irving Joel) why all the mixing consoles weren't facing the glass into the studio. He said "If you can see the player you can hear the player, if you can't see the player you'll move the fader so he can be heard."

Eric

[afewmoreyears]

Richard, I will now talk shit about your post....... I enjoyed it very much, now the criticism... could you please use quotation marks or a different color? I had to read a few parts twice... LOL...

[chriskellett]

Richard, I will now talk shit about your post....... I enjoyed it very much, now the criticism... could you please use quotation marks or a different color? I had to read a few parts twice... LOL...

It is very hard to read RVD's post but remember he does not use a monitor as it is too distracting.

[John Blankenship]

It is very hard to read RVD's post but remember he does not use a monitor as it is too distracting.

LOTD!

[Izen Ears]

Richard you are hilarious. Rather than follow my roiling desire to systematically respond to your multitude of points and counterpoints, judgements on both my work ethic and my product, grandstanding of your career over mine, and your ridiculously ignorant assumptions about mine or Robert's set relationships I'm going to dial it back, after I state the following: you are wrong about everything in a most amusing way.

FACT1 - You and I agree that one should not need a monitor to produce a decent mix.

FACT2 - You believe if a mixer needs a picture to produce a decent mix, regardless of the content or the production's style (or lack of), their mixing skills are inferior to yours, and further that they are whiners if they complain about not having picture.

When Mike Michaels reprinted your insulting way of asserting fact#2 above, well that went right the fuck up my ass. It's a trigger you could say, makes me feel violent when someone says that. It's something only an asshole would say. Makes me feel like they have no idea what I do and just don't care to understand the myriad of factors that are involved in producing my product. The fact that a sound guy I respect said it was salt on the wound. I had a rough long day and I expressed myself passionately and a little offensively. You got offended because I claimed that even your superior mixing skills wouldn't be enough to "nail it" on my show.

Well I feel better. This is so awesome to have happened on such a random thread, I hope the rest of you were entertained! Thank you JW sound I think I'm deciding to drop this issue and try to cool off when I hear that comment, so once again RVD you have helped me. You helped me before with the overlapping dialog advise, and I found your thread “A Cautionary Tale” to be really inspiring.

Dan Izen

[Marc Wielage]

Climbing back from behind my stone wall...

I think both approaches can work, and when I'm able to convince the production or DIT to give me a video feed (which is often a fight for me), I only glance at it once in a while. 90% of the time, I'm listening and glancing at the levels and fader knobs. I can mix without picture, but at least it tells me if we suddenly have an actor out of position, when another actor has left the frame, if the boom has dipped into the picture, or if I see a visible lav or some other flaw. Confirming the slate scene & take number is very handy, especially if you have to work off the set. The monitor is just another tool, not mandatory, but useful.

This reminds me about the conversation with some European boom ops who insist they've worked fine for years without wearing headphones. It's not how I would choose work, but if they can still do their job, I can't argue with them.

--Marc W.

[jason porter]

Being a bag-guy...a monitor is rare. If you are lucky, the camera has a small external monitor setup ON the camera so, once in a while you can glance over and confirm what's being shot. Knowing the shooter personally as well as knowing the lens also helps a lot.

On a recent cart based job, I made it my priority to improve our video RF feed (wireless video is rarely good )so that I could mix to picture with confidence as well as to confirm that the 2 cameras had matching TC (as well as my 788) or just to be able to see what is happening to help improve my sound, example, have a rustling lav? I was able to see what the person was doing physically and that helped me adjust placement of the lav.

The monitor is a tool, and I have never found it distracted me from mixing...except for that one bikini contest

[S Harber]

I personally run a CAT 5 to my 2 monitors and do an audio loop for VTR recording and PB. All on 1 cable.

You can't do that w/ HD and a concern not addressed here is that cable runs in the HD world are something to think about. Max out at about 130'. That happens fast when it goes from camera to village, then village to you.

I don't want to be responsible for the loading down/non-termination and the ensuing under the bus conversation that you set yourself up for.

Without a reclocking DA for the HD signal you would be foolish to tap into that HD signal as it can effect the entire chain of monitors and folks start changing exposure etc. Very bad potential situation there.

2 downconverters were still cheaper than the HD monitors and now we don't have to run those lines to village or VTR. Plus fluff and puff can go and hang over with the "good monitors" rather than sit and yack behind me.

I am fine w/ my low res monitors the same as the folks listening to comteks w/ crappy headphones are listening to my sound.

I'd be feeling a bit naked without monitors in my world and it seems foolish to think I could always get that close to set to see cues etc. these days.

Scott Harber CAS

The simpilist solution I thought was.. Camera is putting out HD-SDI. Video Village is running HD-SDI. So, why couldn't I just have one HD-SDI monitor and one cable? In theroy, that works the most simple. -Richard

[Izen Ears]

Yes Mr. S Harber, this is why I was so excited to hear about the HD-SDI balun boxes! They need power on both sides (6-volt DC I think) and only one CAT5 per picture, but with a 2-banger CAT5 you could have HDSDI something like 330 feet or maybe 440 feet I forget. I guess these products are too new for anyone here to have tried them out... I would never run full BNC across set. But hey if those things work I might take the plunge and dump the two Decimator 2s.

Dan Izen