Aaton bankruptcy

[Tong0615]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Even more insane:

What if Zoom purchased Aaton simply to use their brand name, and nothing else. 

Thus they then released the "Aaton Cantar F8" entirely under the Aaton brand.
(would be identical to the current latest F8 series machines, perhaps with a small natural update to it)

 

To be fair, it would fix the biggest problem about the Zoom F Series! That it "is a Zoom" (as the Zoom brand name carries a lot of negativity, even though the F8n is a truly fantastic machine). 

 

I smell some kind of "racism" here, non US/EU brands is not equal to "low quality / bad image"! To be honest, our industry has been ruled by US and EU companies forever, I would love to see if there could be a chance for a cooperation between companies like Zoom and Aaton, developing more reliable and affordable machines. I think the cooperation between Steinberg and Yamaha is a positive example. 

 

The Zoom F8 series are fantastic products at a relative low price. They gave many people the opportunity to get into the world of cinematic sound, those couldn't afford it before such machine existed. 

But since here is about Aaton, let's give it a hope that Aaton can find an investor and keep making one of the best machines for the industry. 

[IronFilm]

Just to be crystal clear: I'm a big fan of the Zoom F Series. (even though my primary daily machine these days is an 833, I do also have a F4 & F8n) But I can't deny that for other people than myself, then Zoom has a brand perception problem. 

[MattRuth]

I'm a lowly hobbiest really, as much as I'd like to push it further. I have an F8n, and think it's a great piece of equipment. I think a lot of the zoom hate comes from the popularity of the zoom h4n, which was such a popular recorder at the low end of the market, but it would have introduced a lot of people to the world of sound - myself included.

 

My comment earlier was more a joke, but it's not without precedence, even in the audio field, with Behringer buying up brands like Midas & then putting "Midas preamps" on all their equipment. 

 

I imagine if a brand like Zoom bought Aaton they would run the brand stand alone, but that's not to say there wouldn't be features flowing both ways, and possibly some brand exploitation happening.

 

With everyone being let go from the company, maybe the engineers will take their experience and apply it to a new company that can either support the existing equipment, or develop a new recorder that can compete. It would be coming out swinging for such a major product, but maybe they start small, and build up to it. Didn't Sound Devices come out of Shure? 

 

But it's all speculation. I'm just throwing thoughts out.  I guess only time will tell what will happen.

 

[daniel]

16 hours ago, Jim Rillie said:

Wow! Sounds like troll talk. I haven’t read such vitriolic nonsense for a long time.

Best best wishes to all the staff at Aaton and i hope there are positive outcomes for everyone effected by this closure. It is sad to see them go for all the reasons stated but Martin makes some valid points about the recorders which resonate for others though. A bit 'form over function' for me. 1 Eg. The user pathway to set-up the standout USP of the machine - the Faders (Sliders) - was so awkward and all over the place and not sign posted/prompted in any way, on any screen. I've seen people struggle to demo how to do this at industry shows. The 10 days I used 1, I needed a cheat sheet for Faders (lol, so used to pots) and the TC (shudder). No recorder is perfect, i prefer navigating 8 series over the 6, but it's later and needed to be better for the extra capability. Is it bad taste or unfair to discuss these things in a thread about their bankruptcy? Maybe a tiny bit but it's also inevitable.

 

That said, if the Cantarem2 worked with another recorder (*series) I would have (had) 1. Even more so with a display, but then those Transvideo displays are not cheap. My LC8+ and tablet do for now. Smart. move Sonosax (I hope). Audio recorders and UIs are not atomic science, that cost billions and trillions, but i reckon the cost of developing cinema audio recording systems is not cheap. Who will bring the next system/s to market? And is there any point buying another brand? Were questions I considered when buying expensive recorders.  

 

 

 

 

 

[OB1]

The folks at Audiotonix have to be salivating over this, how can they not be?! There's enough IP, engineering, and resources in that umbrella of companies to monopolize. Not that I'm a fan of lack of healthy competition, but the opportunity is sitting in their lap.

[PCMsoundie]

3 hours ago, OB1 said:

The folks at Audiotonix have to be salivating over this, how can they not be?! There's enough IP, engineering, and resources in that umbrella of companies to monopolize. Not that I'm a fan of lack of healthy competition, but the opportunity is sitting in their lap.

While I am always sad to hear of less companies making professional mixing/sound recorders in our small niche fied (Fostex, Tascam) Aaton is one more company though Martin Lonek made it clear what some of the actual user issues were. I had heard on this forum in mid-2000s mixers who worked on Warner Brothers lot had to use Warner's owned Aaton Cantar I think as a recorder.

Tascam had HS-P82 8-Track Pro Field Recorder with timecode which had similar features to a SD788T  when it was released. Tascam now only has a videographer level Portacapture X8 4-XLR input+2 built-in mics/ 32-bit float Portable Audio Field Recorder for $500USD. under their audio for video category on their website. I'd love to see Tascam take the guts of

1 RU DA-6400 64-channel Digital Multitrack Recorder -AC power only and requires a IF-DA64 Dante card to connect to their TASCAM Sonicview 16XP console they released last year that has 64-in/64-out built-in Dante interface. AC power only.

and create a new field recorder to compete with Scorpio.

 

[VASI]

23 hours ago, Jim Rillie said:

Wow! Sounds like troll talk. I haven’t read such vitriolic nonsense for a long time.

 

People is very sensitive these days, Jim. And passionate about their tools. And angry. 🙂

[IronFilm]

12 hours ago, MattRuth said:

With everyone being let go from the company, maybe the engineers will take their experience and apply it to a new company that can either support the existing equipment, or develop a new recorder that can compete. It would be coming out swinging for such a major product, but maybe they start small, and build up to it. Didn't Sound Devices come out of Shure? 

The team from Sound Devices were on very good terms with Shure, and Shure was a massive and thriving company. 

 

Usually the earliest years are the toughest for any new company, but Sound Devices was designing and manufacturing new products for Shure (such as the Shure FP22 and Shure FP23). Am sure having those contracts were very helpful indeed for Sound Devices in getting their business up off the ground and getting in the door some critical cashflow!

 

If the Aaton engineers were to start up a new company however, not only would they need to a huge amount of capital to get started with, but they'd also have to work unpaid for well over a year or more until they could get designed and out the door their first new recorder. It's a long time to go without any income. 

 

If they were mad keen enough to give this a go, they'd probably be best first of all focusing on making accessories / add ons perhaps? That can be designed and pushed out the door relatively quickly, so that they can get some quick results up on the board. 

4 hours ago, PCMsoundie said:

Tascam had HS-P82 8-Track Pro Field Recorder with timecode which had similar features to a SD788T  when it was released. Tascam now only has a videographer level Portacapture X8 4-XLR input+2 built-in mics/ 32-bit float Portable Audio Field Recorder for $500USD. under their audio for video category on their website.

Darn, just discovered the Tascam DR701D is no longer being sold. (was one of Tascam's other TC recorders)

Tascam DR680 mk1 & mk2 (no TC, but a six channel recorder, friendly for bag usage) and Tascam HD-P2 (two channel TC recorder) are two others that Tascam no longer makes. (I started out with a Sound Devices 552 / Tascam DR680mk1 combo as my bag) A pity, as they were quite good lower priced products, and would be nice to see what a modern updated 2024 version of them would be. Especially what a modern HS-P82 would be like!

 

Tascam DR70D & DR60Dmk2 still are being sold though, and are arguably a better choice from a bag ergonomics perspective than the Tascam Portacaputure X8, and those two Tascams are what I normally recommend to indie/student/hobbyist/amateur filmmakers looking for a "no budget" option.

 

 

4 hours ago, PCMsoundie said:

I'd love to see Tascam take the guts of 1 RU DA-6400 64-channel Digital Multitrack Recorder -AC power only and requires a IF-DA64 Dante card to connect to their TASCAM Sonicview 16XP console they released last year that has 64-in/64-out built-in Dante interface. AC power only.

and create a new field recorder to compete with Scorpio.

Or it could be a proper true replacement to the Sound Device 970 that is no longer made?

That is perhaps the biggest gap in the market right now, a super high track count recorder that can do 64 tracks at once (or maybe even 128 tracks??). 

[codyman]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Or it could be a proper true replacement to the Sound Device 970 that is no longer made?

It's a bummer they discontinued that recorder.  They rarely pop up on the used market too and when they do, sell for some pretty big coin quickly.  That new Yamaha DC powered dante board into one would be great for high track count stuff into one of those (although it seems people are using that Yamaha's USB into a laptop with Boom Recorder too).

[Martin Lonek]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:32 PM, codyman said:

Might be a good candidate.  What the market needs is something to fill the big price vacuum between a Zoom F8N and an 833.

I completely agree ! The very limited market of high end professional sound recorders gives most opportunities to someone who´s already big in prosumer and lower professional grade recorders. ZOOM stays closest from making a great high grade professional recorder. They only need to change the ergononics a bit and introduce some connectivity update (as Superslot, Dante or Madi support. Just an opinion, though.

[codyman]

7 minutes ago, Martin Lonek said:

introduce some connectivity update

Honestly if they just made an F16n, maybe threw some AES inputs on it and called it a day, that would be fine too.

 

I'd love a small, 5 channel mixer recorder with phantom and a great mic pre on channel 1, then a super slot for a 4 channel receiver built in as boom + 4 lavs would cover most of my use cases.

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

3 minutes ago, codyman said:

I'd love a small, 5 channel mixer recorder with phantom and a great mic pre on channel 1, then a super slot for a 4 channel receiver built in as boom + 4 lavs would cover most of my use cases.

Mine too.  Right now I use a Nova for this, and, to be honest, I've been glad to have its additional capabilities when I need them.  But I'd love a super-light interview bag with this configuration of inputs.  It needs to have large, gripped, rotary faders (*not* infinity knobs) so I can tell when a fader is fully down by feel.

[Martin Lonek]

5 hours ago, PCMsoundie said:

While I am always sad to hear of less companies making professional mixing/sound recorders in our small niche fied (Fostex, Tascam) Aaton is one more company though Martin Lonek made it clear what some of the actual user issues were. I had heard on this forum in mid-2000s mixers who worked on Warner Brothers lot had to use Warner's owned Aaton Cantar I think as a recorder.

Tascam had HS-P82 8-Track Pro Field Recorder with timecode which had similar features to a SD788T  when it was released. Tascam now only has a videographer level Portacapture X8 4-XLR input+2 built-in mics/ 32-bit float Portable Audio Field Recorder for $500USD. under their audio for video category on their website. I'd love to see Tascam take the guts of

1 RU DA-6400 64-channel Digital Multitrack Recorder -AC power only and requires a IF-DA64 Dante card to connect to their TASCAM Sonicview 16XP console they released last year that has 64-in/64-out built-in Dante interface. AC power only.

and create a new field recorder to compete with Scorpio.

 

Yes, I opologize I forgot to say what you did - that I´m also sad to see Aaton Cantar go, eventhough I was not a personal fan of the machines they made, for the reasons I depicted. I´m also sad and angry to see Sound devices going away from theit orginal goal - to integrate other vendors wireless into their recorder ecosystem. Sad to see them stop making great A10-Rack. Sad to see their SL2 is only a poorer child compared to great SL6. I have a strong feeling that someone else should enter the business of top sound recorders, be it TASCAM, FOSTEX, ZOOM...

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

I agree, Sound Devices is not developing the way they once were.  They need competition.

 

[Martin Lonek]

On 2/22/2024 at 11:29 PM, Display Name said:

BlackMagic have a penchant for buy left overs from closed businesses and open them for the masses.

And they are quite empty on the dedicated audio recorder area.

I think BM´s philosophy is miles away from Aaton Cantar universe. Can´t imagine how inserting cantar lineup could help their image.... 

21 minutes ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

I agree, Sound Devices is not developing the way they once were.  They need competition.

 

Definitely !

[Dejan Ceko]

23.10.2013. TRANSVIDEO, through its holding company ITHAKI, acquired AATON .   https://www.transvideo.eu/blog/transvideo-acquired-aaton

Then X3 came out .

Maybe , after a decade , we can expect X4 under new parent brand ?  ... or , this is just a wishful thinking of mine ... time will tell .

 

Best wishes to all at Aaton .

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, codyman said:

Honestly if they just made an F16n, maybe threw some AES inputs on it and called it a day, that would be fine too.

Exactly, a slightly beefed up F8n with four pairs of AES inputs, and a new Zoom F Control that allows you to gang up two of the Control Surfaces at once (for 16 channel mixing) would be fantastic. 

7 hours ago, codyman said:

I'd love a small, 5 channel mixer recorder with phantom and a great mic pre on channel 1, then a super slot for a 4 channel receiver built in as boom + 4 lavs would cover most of my use cases.

Sounds like a new Zoom F4n with an optional "Zoom SL2" accessory on the front. (so sad there was never a F4n released, as the F4 was fairly close to perfect as a basic lightweight recorder for simpler gigs)

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

9 hours ago, IronFilm said:

a new Zoom F Control that allows you to gang up two of the Control Surfaces at once (for 16 channel mixing) would be fantastic. 

This, unfortunately, is where the dream falls apart.  Zoom discontinued their F8 Control, presumably because it didn't do the volume they needed.  Zoom's market niche and corporate strategy isn't designed for high end, low volume products like the Cantar X3.  The reason they don't have a competing product is because their advantage is low-cost off-shored manufacturing, and that advantage goes away when the volume isn't there to justify it.  They need to be a completely different kind of company to pull of what we are talking about.

[Display Name]

I can see Aaton or Cantar as the audio brand together with CineAlta. 
Sony have the financial strength and it would solidify their cinema territory quite well. 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

Sony isn't known for acquiring other companies or brands ... they do everything in-house.  Though, I suppose they also aren't the powerhouse they once were.

They also have audio expertise going back almost as long as there has been audio.  I can see them poaching the engineering talent, if they were Japanese and not French.  But I can't see them buying the brand.

[Jim Feeley]

2 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

Sony isn't known for acquiring other companies or brands ... they do everything in-house.  Though, I suppose they also aren't the powerhouse they once were.

They also have audio expertise going back almost as long as there has been audio.  I can see them poaching the engineering talent, if they were Japanese and not French.  But I can't see them buying the brand.

 

OTOH, Sony bought Konica Minolta, reportedly for their patents and their engineers. That acquisition launched Sony's move into good still cameras. Also Aiwa, Sonic Foundry, some semiconductor companies and manufacturing plants, Audeze, and a bunch of other stuff. So they do acquire companies even when they have some in-house expertise. But Aaton I'd guess serves too narrow a market for Sony to acquire. 

 

I'd think Blackmagic might be a more likely candidate, though I don't think they have as much cash floating around as they did before (no idea, really). I mean, they acquired Fairlight...and most of the engineers came along (and last I heard were fairly happy there), and eyeon software (developers of fusion) and at least some of the engineers are still at BMD and happy (I was acquitted with Steve Roberts, eyeon's CEO and original developer and we usually have a quick catchup if we see each other and NAB).

 

But I really have no idea and I hope the people at Aaton all land at good places. 

[KC Kelly]

I don't know much about it, but wouldn't Sonosax or Nagra Audio be more likely to acquire rights to Aaton?

[Mark LeBlanc]

I happily use the NOVA 2, Nomad 12's and now Deva 24 on a daily basis on Episodic. Each fill a roll perfectly encapsulated with Zaxnet control over all my wireless.. This "Eco System" is what eventually doomed Aaton. Selling a recorder is good. Selling a Record and all the wireless is even better.. With that I would see the only "Fit" to purchase the Aaton assets is a Wireless company looking to join the Ecosystem world.. 

[KC Kelly]

45 minutes ago, Mark LeBlanc said:

... With that I would see the only "Fit" to purchase the Aaton assets is a Wireless company looking to join the Ecosystem world.. 

Perhaps Wisycom?

[Mark LeBlanc]

That might be a good fit.. Geographically fairly close.