Active antennas vs remoting RX

[nevo]

Hi all

I was wondering how people deal with being far away from set.

I have active antennas and know the pitfalls of them.

Ive been looking into a input interface that runs on DC and converts analog to Dante.

Remoting the RX next to set is another solution with its own pros and cons.

What Are the general thoughts on

these methods.

Im planning on having both options available.

Regards Nevo

[RocketTreeAudio]

There are videos of people remoting Rx with Dante. The one I watched was with a DSQD. Sorry don’t have link off the top of my head.

[Philip Perkins]

Remoteing RX via Dante or other incl analog is SOP in the live show world, where channel counts can easily run to over 100.  It is just much more efficient for long runs in heavy RF environments.  On location I've gone back and forth over the years, depending on how mobile I needed to be.  The advantage to having the RX+ants on your cart is that your whole rig moves together, like NOW, w/o having to retrieve a remote rack and its cables.  Many mixers normally run with their RX on their carts, but have set up the RX so they can pull them off and remote them if that looks like the best solution for a given shot.  That worked well for me.  In general, with RF, closer is better, no matter what antennas you use.

[IronFilm]

If you're only needing to handle a small number of channels (four or less), then look into EtherCON. Was going to be doing a feature film later this year which required me recording in three locations simultaneously at once (but each location was usually less than 30m away), and at each location I was usually only needing to run 3 or 4 channels there & back. Thus my plan was to remote the receivers/transmitters and run it back over EtherCON to my central location. More efficient than dealing with four times as many XLR cables. 

 

8 hours ago, RocketTreeAudio said:

There are videos of people remoting Rx with Dante. The one I watched was with a DSQD. Sorry don’t have link off the top of my head.

Guessing you're thinking of Cujo's video:

 

 

[Mungo]

7 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

Remoteing RX via Dante or other incl analog is SOP in the live show world, where channel counts can easily run to over 100.  It is just much more efficient for long runs in heavy RF environments.

 

Rack mount receivers behind the stage in phsysical reach of monitor mixing technician, that's what I see most of the time.

Sound engineer monitoring and controlling all RX via IP. Every serious manufacturer has extensive software solutions for that: Sennheiser WSM (Wireless Systems Manager), Sony Wireless Studio, Shure Workbench, Lectro Wireless Designer, Wisycom Manager ...

No problem via IP, so no experimentig with Dante needed at first. Disadvantage for our work: In most cases (except Lectro) you need big rack mount receivers which require AC.

In case of Sennheiser (which I tested) you even don't need a router if you just want to control one unit. Just LAN cable, wait for configuration and go on.

[Philip Perkins]

There have been moments over the years where having the RX close to the talent, and using just their individual whip antennas  on long RX output runs to me worked better than any remote antenna rig I could come up with for RX working at a distance from talent, ie on my cart.  It's a low-tech (and cheap) solution but it works pretty well.

[afewmoreyears]

I run a 6 ch XLR snake out and place my venue 2  on a stand close to set,  with my antennas on it as well.. Has worked well for years.... I would much rather run the RX closer than run antenna coax. I have AC on the snake as well... Never a problem.

[BAB414]

3 hours ago, afewmoreyears said:

I run a 6 ch XLR snake out and place my venue 2  on a stand close to set,  with my antennas on it as well.. Has worked well for years.... I would much rather run the RX closer than run antenna coax. I have AC on the snake as well... Never a problem.

I used to do the same until I discovered LMR 240 Ultra Flex bnc.

[afewmoreyears]

1 hour ago, BAB414 said:

I used to do the same until I discovered LMR 240 Ultra Flex bnc.

It's no hassle at all, and a real rarity I need to do it...

[borjam]

Anything Ethernet based is so flexible. You can even use fiber instead of twisted pair. It’s much thinner and depending on the type of transceivers and fiber you use it can run for several Km while twisted pair is limited to 100 m.

[S Harber]

I've built a rig that has 3 Venues and a Ferrofish A32 adaptor that converts the analog to Dante.

Now I run the audio back to my cart and also return an IFB signal, TC, speaker/VOG outputs, earwigs etc back to that rack. It hits a small patch panel.

It lives in a 6 RU SKB case that has a LiFE battery and DC power supply. The rack is the footprint of an apple box when stood on edge which goes close to set. 

 

Now no (or very rarely) running antenna cables.  I'll have 2 sets of IFB feeds (one set forward, one on the mix cart) that my receivers can tune to both freqs. 

Folks can now jam TC from set rather than the mix cart.  

None of this is mutually exclusive so it's not an either/or but both hubs, mix and rack forward system, work at the same time.

It gets me away from set easier and Dante is great for situations like this. Perfect for Covid concerns.

 

SH

[BAB414]

43 minutes ago, S Harber said:

I've built a rig that has 3 Venues and a Ferrofish A32 adaptor that converts the analog to Dante.

Now I run the audio back to my cart and also return an IFB signal, TC, speaker/VOG outputs, earwigs etc back to that rack. It hits a small patch panel.

It lives in a 6 RU SKB case that has a LiFE battery and DC power supply. The rack is the footprint of an apple box when stood on edge which goes close to set. 

 

Now no (or very rarely) running antenna cables.  I'll have 2 sets of IFB feeds (one set forward, one on the mix cart) that my receivers can tune to both freqs. 

Folks can now jam TC from set rather than the mix cart.  

None of this is mutually exclusive so it's not an either/or but both hubs, mix and rack forward system, work at the same time.

It gets me away from set easier and Dante is great for situations like this. Perfect for Covid concerns.

 

SH

What do you do about video?

[drpro]

Video is easy to send via Cat5

 

[BAB414]

31 minutes ago, drpro said:

Video is easy to send via Cat5

 

Yes. I was curious how S Harber does it and if/how he integrates that into his remote system.

[foliver]

1 hour ago, drpro said:

Video is easy to send via Cat5

 

Hi, i remember some years ago, SD image, one baloon on each side and a cat5 cable.

How you resolve today with HD-SDI connectors?

[S Harber]

1 hour ago, BAB414 said:

Yes. I was curious how S Harber does it and if/how he integrates that into his remote system.

I can get 250' on normal cable/BNC and I have a various lengths of 2 pair for that.

Video isn't part of that system.

 

[BAB414]

4 hours ago, S Harber said:

I can get 250' on normal cable/BNC and I have a various lengths of 2 pair for that.

Video isn't part of that system.

 

Thank you. I get too much loss after 100 feet. Are you amplifying the signal?

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, BAB414 said:

Thank you. I get too much loss after 100 feet. Are you amplifying the signal?

NDI is worth checking out if you need to do very long runs for video. 
(NDI is for video kind of like DANTE is for audio)
For just a couple examples of many:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1454930-REG/kiloview_kv_e1_sdi_to_ndi_encoder.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1501369-REG/magewell_64060_pro_convert_sdi_tx.html

[S Harber]

On 8/17/2020 at 7:18 PM, BAB414 said:

Thank you. I get too much loss after 100 feet. Are you amplifying the signal?

I am generally taking a feed from a video receiver that runs through a DA which I don't think does anything more than split signals evenly. 200' is actually about the most I'd put on it quite reliably (250' usually works but not like clockwork honestly) but I have definitely noticed that certain monitors I use work better with lower video signals. Oddly the best being the PIX 260/270 monitors I used to have when they were on my cart.  Now I have some IKANs that are OK and when we do very long runs at times I will flip the patching around to have the more sensitive of the two get the weaker signal. Somewhat voodoo at times not unlike wireless concerns.

The video/cat5 solutions are cool but seem to need a cat5 per video signal and are pricey. Or one could do the quad split insert then to the cat5 then to a big monitor on the mixer side but..... someday.

Maybe there's an elegant solution out there.

[Brian]

On 8/9/2020 at 6:46 PM, BAB414 said:

I used to do the same until I discovered LMR 240 Ultra Flex bnc.

hey, 

 

could you post a picture of what it looks like.  I looked at the LMR 240db and is not practical for running it on set or coiling it.  It looks like it would be in a  permanent installation.  It has a great spec for loss at the frequencies I use on Lectro.  Is it pliable but still rugged?