Den Nic Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Got thinking about it be soundslikejustin's post: "A timecode slate, if required, is the property and responsibility of the sound dept, but is used by the camera dept. A traditional clap slate (at least on the jobs i work on) is solely the responsibility of the camera dept. " Why is this? I my mind, if there is a piece of equipment that is used constantly by the camera department, it should be the camera department's. I realize that sound is responsible for timecode, but does that mean we should have to bring the camera dept a slate to use and abuse? I worked on a Union show where A slate was a rental and B slate was the sound mixer's. The AC's would bring the slates to the mixer at the top of the day (leaving them their if he was currently busy), and then retrieve them once they were jammed. This would again happen at lunch. Later in the day we head a giant sound which was obviously a slate dropping. We look and see it's the B slate as the AC picks it up. The mixer knows what's up, but the AC has the nerve to go and ask me to bring the slate to the mixer (I'm the Sound Utility) because the slate is "acting funny", not even admitting they dropped it, let alone apologizing. I just think that for my kit and my money, for me to spend $1200 plus on something that the Camera department uses exclusively, doesn't really feel responsible for, and doesn't actually get me any more sound capabilities (Wireless, etc.) then I don't see the benifit. If production wants a TC slate, they should add it to the camera rental like they do if they wants a B or C slate when the mixer already has one. Thoughts/opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
André Boisvert Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't see the benifit. The only benefit is rental income. It's up to you to decide whether you get it or someone else does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Totally agree, we should provide the timecode jam, but not the slates. It's kind of like the whole "prop dept. got stuck with chair duty" that has some weird origin. It's good the Denecke's are so rugged for how many times mine have been dropped! Considering digital shooting (where the cameras get a sync box), the slate is redundant anyway so why should we risk it?! Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProSound Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 It certainly isn't fair but it is how it is. It doesn't make much sense though since camera dept has to provide sync boxes and cables for camera. I have had 3 slates in last 2 years get lost or destroyed by production all paid for but still a PIA. ( I know there is a homeless man who is having alot of fun with one of them) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Moore Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I looked at a shinny new slate and had the same feelings. I rock a Denecke TS-1 thats come to me pre loved by myriad camera departments. Sure its takes as many batteries as Radio Raheem's boombox, but it gets the job done. It has a sticker on the back that says "please treat me well" and I still lecture 2nd ACs when I hand it over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 On one of the shows I mixed, the slates and SyncBoxes were something I negotiate after the kit rental was established. I took the cost of a slate or syncbox, subtracted about 10% (I think it really depends on the shows budget & UPM's IQ), then divided that amount out over the # of weeks for which I would be charging a kit rental -- added the amount to my existing kit rental. Otherwise, I told them they could find their own TC implements... so basically, production almost bought the slate or syncbox for me (at slightly less than what it would cost them to buy (and maintain) their own units. If something is dropped, it goes on the PR and production agrees to replace it at the 1st sign of trouble...they can do whatever they want with the compromised unit -- keep it, sell it... I can no longer use it with confidence it will not malfunction eventually as a result of the damage it's incurred. I've had AC's drop my slates, leave them in set bags out in the rain, all sorts of abuse. Yeah, it's considered a "sound" item, but it's also one of those gray areas where (with a little negotiating skill and Irish Diplomacy) one can maintain an edge. The trick is finding a figure for the weekly rental that will prevent them from going out and simply buying the units, but a figure that will also absorb your cost of acquisition / repair / depreciation. It probably won't always work, but I got 2 SB-T's and 2 TSc's that way. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg sextro Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 buy a used one. they are provided by sound because they historically came about that way. should it be a camera department offering? i don't see why not, but the master TC on set is generally the sound department, and the last thing I'd want to have to do is accommodate all the different slates out there that camera departments might theoretically own - what a pain in the ass, you'd have to learn how to operate/navigate the menu system of 10 different smart slates... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncsoundmixer Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 My Denecke TS-C is one of my favorite pieces of kit. To me, the slate is a classic piece of motion picture making gear and it brings me feelings of nostalgia and tradition. I'm glad that I'm expected to provide a smart slate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toy Robot Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 This brings up a couple of related questions: Do you specify before the shoot that production is responsible for damaged slates & all other Sound Dept. equipment that they might at some point be in control of? Can you hold someone to a replacement if you don't specify this in writing before the project? I know many of you have spoken in the past like it's assumed that production will pay to have it replaced, but I can easily see a young production company balking at a $1,500 slate charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylormadeaudio Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 DEFINITELY get it in writing beforehand. Otherwise you have no power when something goes wrong. Discuss insurance (get a rider listing you (your company) as a loss payee, and discuss the very scenario about which we are talking here -- what happens when (not if) an AC damages my gear -- because it will happen eventually. ~tt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ncsoundmixer Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I make sure I get an insurance cert from the client per-shoot. If the slate op looks green or un-caring, I'll get up in their face and tell them they are using an expensive piece of gear and it's not a toy. A good AC is usually respectful of the slate - in my experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 ... I know many of you have spoken in the past like it's assumed that production will pay to have it replaced, but I can easily see a young production company balking at a $1,500 slate charge. If they break a light, they'll have to pay for it. That's standard. When they rent a grip truck they must supply an insurance cert. That's also standard. As to us supplying a Smart Slate: Think about the nightmare that would typically happen if we didn't. The slates would not get proper love and care and may well be out of calibration. (Note that there's even a popular camera company whose cameras leave the factory with undependable time code. That's how much the camera department cares about time code accuracy.) Guess who gets blamed when audio doesn't sync up. If we have to argue the point ("It's actually the camera that's not syncing up!"), it's too late -- the damage is done. Things we're held responsible for are good to have under our control. That's why a time code slate comes from our department and a clap slate does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Make sure the job is properly insured. Accidents will happen. From a slate being dropped, to a transmitter falling in a toilet. Even just a hasty actor destroying a lav mic. At the other end, there are horror stories of a camera truck (where sound often lives) going up in flames with everything inside. Sound is traditionally in control of time, so that's where we traditionally are in charge of time devices. Less of a headache to show up with a slate that you know works. I personally dragged my feet on buying one. The jobs that required a slate were usually low budget nightmares that only were going to pay $x.xx for sound mixer and kit per day. I shared your thinking. On those jobs it was definitely a case of spending $1,300 that doesn't help me capture sound. Nothing sounds better, and it doesn't make my life easier. That could have been another shotgun mic, or a Lectro transmitter. The jobs that paid me the better rates never required a TC slate, so it seemed wiser to invest in gear that was more universal in my kit. Eventually you will get past those jobs, especially with the popularity of 5D shoots. *Some* really want a TC slate as a backup to PluralEyes, some don't care about TC at all. I have had a TC slate save the day when the scratch track on the DSLR failed. Before I bought a slate, I would tell films they needed to get one if they wanted one, and suggested rental options. Line producers like the help, and I could try to direct rentals to friendlies. Worst budget case, I also figured they could probably get one cheap with the camera rental (maybe? I have no idea). Honestly, the more they learn, the easier it is to get them to pay for gear like slates and sync boxes. I always keep a standard clap slate with me too. Some projects are fine with those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) " so why should we risk it?! " asked and answered: rental income. " Do you specify before the shoot that production is responsible for damaged slates & all other Sound Dept. equipment that they might at some point be in control of? " ABSOLUTELY, and this includes the entire sound package, no matter who has "control" of it. Certificate of Insurance is a requirement, but it is only a start, as there is a deductible that the production company is responsible for. well, it doesn't take much to bring this topic to a discussion of dealing with flakes (Subway Tuna types, for sure)... Equipment (slates and all) takes at least as much wear and tear, and frequently more, on these gigs, which is further reasons not to be cutting the grass (separate thread) on equipment rentals... If a production wants/needs SMPTE TC, they can either pay for it with an individual line item, or as part of a fair package rental; deal. They are, of course welcome to supply their own TC via iPhone, or whatever, and deal with the results. " Sound is traditionally in control of time, so that's where we traditionally are in charge of time devices. " do you mean "time code ?? not so much a tradition as it is that the first TC came to film sets with the sound recorders, and got onto the film via the camera taking a picture of the TC slate, thus all the TC came from the sound department. Back in "the beginning of TC" the slates were $50/day each and the TC Nagra was $75/day, only $25/day more than the 4.2. I know folks who bought slates and rented the TC Nagra's, as the slates were by far the better "investment" for rental... Edited May 8, 2012 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirror Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Tell you what, rent all your TC slates and sync boxes from me and your problem is solved. They are good income generators and I'm more than happy to step in and fill that role! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Senator makes a very important point. The insurance deductible. In my experience, most shoots have a deductible "per incident" that is probably at least $1,000. Say you have one actor that wrecks 2 lavs over a 4 week shoot. Often policies consider those as separate incidents, so production is paying out of pocket. That's where they can be a bigger thorn in your side over the smaller claims. These are the people you probably won't want to build a career working for. That's also why those red flags of an underfunded production are very real to people that provide kit. seasoned productions know that this stuff happens and it's in the budget to smooth over whatever comes up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'd rather provide the slates. If I didn't I doubt they'd be in sync much of the time. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 I'm with Phil. If they're my slates, I know they'll work. I believe it was decided a long time ago by the IA camera locals that timecode was too much of a bother for them, so the logic was, timecode was an analog signal -- or at least, it was carried on an analog wire -- and therefore, was the sound department's domain. I think it's ingrained as so much of a tradition now, it's hard to change. I agree for the need to get everything insured, and the camera department should be aware that a $1500 TC slate is not the same thing as a $50 wooden slate. I (politely) chide the AC when I catch them leaving the sticks open, only because I'm paranoid about running down the batteries. As a sidenote: I still would like to see a system that wirelessly synchronizes the timecode for the camera department, slate, sound department, and the script supervisor, plus also sends and updates scene and take information. I think the Cameron-Pace 3D people have something like this, but I'd like to see it as an open-source project, available (relatively) inexpensively, standardized by multiple manufacturers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 The senator is right.Sound had t.c. first and because of that we had to provide t.c. to the camera thru the slate.At the time I bitched about giving my equipment to the enemy.------Please stop providing them with sync boxes,they'll always expect it. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundslikejustin Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 As a sidenote: I still would like to see a system that wirelessly synchronizes the timecode for the camera department, slate, sound department, and the script supervisor, plus also sends and updates scene and take information. Isn't that what the Ambient Clockit Network (ACN) is supposed to be? Or what Zaxnet kind of does - apart from the not-working-with Denecke-slates-bit that they said would eventually happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Davenport Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 I have just stopped giving out my TC slate. I used to give it out to try and value add for the client. After seeing my Ambient 301 abused, misused and treated poorly I made the decision that it just was not worth the stress. I have also tired of explaining what it does. I did a three camera 5D shoot recently for a long time client and I had to insist that he use the TC slate, as he was all "No we don't need it, it will put the Talent off". Later on a different job I passed the Edit Suit and you could see all the thumbnail clips of the TC slate lined up on the edit computer. I told the Editor and he was "Thankyou I would have been here for days trying to join these up". I went and grabbed the Director and dragged him into the edit suit and had the Editor explain what it meant to him. The next job the director insisted we use the slate. I'm over giving the slate out, it's fragile , expensive and stops me having heated discussions with camera assistants when I see the arm stuffed between the belt and the pants with the whole weight of the slate hanging off the arm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sound Grab Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hey Dennis, You know that TC slate that was being used on the shoot you were on during the weekend? It was mine... and I got rental rate. Now you know why I own one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spencer Moore Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 I'm over giving the slate out, it's fragile , expensive and stops me having heated discussions with camera assistants when I see the arm stuffed between the belt and the pants with the whole weight of the slate hanging off the arm. Do ACs really do the shark fin with a TC slate?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Yeah, it's considered a "sound" item, but it's also one of those gray areas where (with a little negotiating skill and Irish Diplomacy) one can maintain an edge. ~tt Irish Diplomacy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Irish Diplomacy? Friendly, easy-going, and jovial ... and you break their arm if they don't listen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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