Client Boundaries

[Toy Robot]

Hi all. I've run into a recent situation with a client and I'm hoping for your advice. I have a few ideas for how to deal with this, but sometimes outside perspective is best.

I'm being intentionally vague with this post since the internet is a small place, but here is the situation in a nutshell:

I work regularly with a client that has been paying my day rate and treating me well. Nice guy, great crew, no complications. Everything seemed fine for months.

About a week ago I received a series of emails from his administrative assistant (small production company - one person doing billing and admin stuff) with questions regarding my invoices. Questions that without going into detail, I knew were leading to the 'we want to pay you less money' conversation. The following day after receiving those emails and answering them all, the producer I've been working with shoots me an email exactly as I had anticipated. Not verbatim - "We'd like to know if you can work with us on your rate for XX scenario', etc. So I responded that it wasn't possible for all the reasons we in this JWSound community know of, and then respectfully asked what the client expected now that I had made my position and the industry standards clear. Never heard back from him or his administrative assistant regarding my response.

Two days after my response mentioned above, I went on another project out of town with the producer. He simply never mentioned a word about our email correspondence two days earlier, so I figured he understood, and simply didn't want to fuss any more about rates.

I believe I was wrong...

Yesterday I receive an email from the client telling me he's hired another sound guy for a shoot in location XX and flat out asks if I can teach that sound guy how to do sound for the shoot because he has no DSLR experience. Goes on to say he's using a Zoom unit and asks if 'everything will be okay'.

Needless to say I was unhappy about the request. This morning I get another email asking whether or not I can help them teach this sound guy how to do their job. Then in another separate email, he says basically, 'By the way, we've added a PA to the shoots you go on with us, and can you start teaching him about sound?'

So now I'm thoroughly frustrated. I had a client that was treating me well and paying me properly, and has now done a 180 so far as I can tell. What I see is that I'm being replaced, and not so subtly. I don't see any situation beyond these requests where I continue to work for this production company and receive my day rate, however I would love to try and salvage this relationship with the client if possible.

So..

What are your reactions? What would you do? Do you think this is a mis-read on my part, and should I simply give the producer what he asks for?

All thoughts welcome.

[Eric Toline]

Do not provide any instruction to the newbee sound guys. The fact that your "ex" client asks that is a clear indication that they don't respect you or have any shame. Remind them that "you get what you pay for." Your relationship with them is over. Say goodbye and move on.

Eric

[Q]

I would become "unavailable" for those days and thank them for the call.

[John Blankenship]

Another option is an even simpler approach. The next time they call with such a request, tell them you're not available for those days.

If they get hosed enough, they'll try to get you back and will probably quit the nonsense, otherwise, what have you lost?

(Apparently I cross-posted the same thought with Q.)

Look at it this way: You're in a good position now, because you have nothing to lose, so relax and enjoy the circus.

[Olle Sjostrom]

I totally agree with Eric on this one. It may hurt, but.. That's like finding out you've been cheated on, which you have!

What a bummer.

Or, you could tell them "yes, I can teach them. For my day rate + a little extra for tutoring your new soundies, that won't be able to deliver as good audio as me, an won't be able to for a LONG time" His decision to replace you should cost him more if he wants to hire you AGAIN after cheating.

This is just like cheating!

[Michael McQueen]

i too had a similar situation with a regular client. the client also does a lot of wedding video through a different name, but same company. many moons ago i would shoot weddings for them. and being a sound guy, i always had great sound. well i stopped doing weddings about 3 years ago and i guess their new "filmmakers" don't know shit about sound. so client asks me to have a teaching day with their 4 filmmakers shooting weddings and how to get good sound. he offered to pay me a day rate, etc.. at first i just said i was busy next couple of weeks but then he was more persistent with asking for this educational day. so i just had to flat out say no, not interested. phone rang seconds after i sent that email. i straight up told him, i've spent years perfecting my craft and i'm not going to just show a bunch of wanna be filmmakers how to do what i do, especially in a day, cause they won't retain the information. if anything it would make them worse. but he tried to be all "this is just for wedding guys and it won't hurt your job security, etc.." but you know what? it will. because this client is known for being a cheapskate. he's going to have a shoot requiring a sound guy and him being the way he is, is going to hire that wedding filmmaker with a zoom and a g3 wireless to be the "sound mixer" for the shoot for $150. poof, there goes my job. so i still say no, a day rate of teaching some "filmmakers" how to "get great sound" is going to cost me many day rates in the future. i'm not having it. if its a friend and they are trying to get good enough sound for a wedding, sure i'm going to show them the ropes with a g3 and a zoom because i know that when they are on a job and need a soundie, they're going to drop my name, because i helped them. the client on the other hand, he's just trying to stack those benjamins.

[Toy Robot]

Another option is an even simpler approach. The next time they call with such a request, tell them you're not available for those days.

If they get hosed enough, they'll try to get you back and will probably quit the nonsense, otherwise, what have you lost?

Problem with this approach is this is a regular client asking me to educate an aspiring mixer via email; critique his kit, offer pointers, etc. Plus, on my regular shoots, I already know what I'm walking into now, which is to meet my replacement. I think I might not have a choice but to heed Eric's advice (which I believe is correct anyway). I'm just looking for a way to not burn a bridge if possible. IF the client learns his lesson, I'm happy to work with him again. But I will not tolerate this type of behavior from him as it is extraordinarily unprofessional in my opinion.

[Jeff Wexler]

There is no way to "salvage" this relationship because the people you wish to continue your prior relationship with have CHANGED. They are different people than they were before and are making totally un-realistic demands on you and on the entire category of work that you do... this isn't a relationship you should try and salvage. Nor should you do anything "educational" for your replacement (or anything that might serve to educate them in the foolishness of their ways). The suggestions to just say you are not available if they call again is the best approach. If they do get burned enough times with their PA turned Sound Guy, they may come back to you --- but it will clearly be in your court and on your terms if the relationship is resurrected in any form.

[David Waelder]

My take on this is that they like you and want to continue to work with you but, for one reason or another, find it difficult to pay your rate. Maybe they're getting rate pressure from their clients; maybe they just don't fully understand the value of things.

Your dilemma is that you can't give them what they really want without shorting yourself. Since they seem to like you enough to give you more than one opportunity to bend to their needs, I would try to make an accommodation that at least recognizes their importance to you as a client.

I think that I would tell them that I just can't make a living at the rates they wish to pay but that I would be able to give them special consideration from time to time when they experience a budget crunch. I think I would put some boundaries on the offer. I sometimes tell a client that I can help out for one or two days but can't really accommodate for a full week or more.

There is a good chance that, over time, you will find that EVERY project from this client will have special budget needs. Then you'll just have to decline assignments, accepting only on those occasions when circumstances make it very convenient for you. The idea is that you want to be the pro on their list, the fellow they call when they really want it good. Those occasions will probably be few and far between but, at least, you don't burn bridges.

David

[Jeff Wexler]

I'm just looking for a way to not burn a bridge if possible.

THEY burned the bridge and are now asking you to walk over it in bare feet and train the PA on the other side to do your job.

[PCMsoundie]

i've spent years perfecting my craft and i'm not going to just show a bunch of wanna be filmmakers how to do what i do, especially in a day,

This.

I've wanted to have a discussion on similar subject matter. Alex brings up

we've added a PA to the shoots you go on with us, and can you start teaching him about sound?'

If someone on a shoot who is young is genuinely interested in asking about camera or sound on a non-narrative TV set I will answer a few questions. I am not going to teach them the job. It is not in my best interest. It is not in the professional sound recordist community within my region's best interest.

If a client asks me to teach a PA sound I will tell them one thing but not step-by-step. That is what classes and books are for.

It sounds like your client just showed you the door because they want to be cheap rather than be loyal and know the value in which your fee comes with.

You might just have to be unavailable in the future rather than discuss further based on the emails you and the company already traded.

[soundtrane]

Oh man! Is this happening in the USA??? I know morons reside in all parts of the world, but this one takes the cake!

[Eric Toline]

Problem with this approach is this is a regular client asking me to educate an aspiring mixer via email; critique his kit, offer pointers, etc. Plus, on my regular shoots, I already know what I'm walking into now, which is to meet my replacement. I think I might not have a choice but to heed Eric's advice (which I believe is correct anyway). I'm just looking for a way to not burn a bridge if possible. IF the client learns his lesson, I'm happy to work with him again. But I will not tolerate this type of behavior from him as it is extraordinarily unprofessional in my opinion.

Not burning a bridge is a fantasy. It's like being nice to the girlfriend who has dumped you for another guy. Regardless of the outcome you can never trust her again nor should you.

Eric

P.S. You got screwed without the pleasure of getting laid.

[ccsnd]

Ok, here is what you do.

Book a day with the client and their new PA sound guy. The night before the shoot eat a bunch of cabbage, beans, whatever makes you gassy. The next day on the shoot keep farting and blaming it on the new guy.

They will be sure never to hire him again because of his smell, and they will respect your non smelly work.

In my opinion this is your only option for successfully not burning the bridge.

[taylormadeaudio]

Do not provide any instruction to the newbee sound guys. The fact that your "ex" client asks that is a clear indication that they don't respect you or have any shame. Remind them that "you get what you pay for." Your relationship with them is over. Say goodbye and move on.

Eric

+11

Exactly -- don't be rude, but don't be afraid if/when you do speak with this "client" again, to let him know that while you value the relationship, his actions are presumptuous and not conducive to maintaining a healthy relationship. Maybe ask him out of curiosity, what made him think you'd actually be willing to train your replacement. If I has to guess?...

Balls -- completely detached from anything resembling a brain.

~tt

[LarryF]

THEY burned the bridge and are now asking you to walk over it in bare feet and train the PA on the other side to do your job.

Hi Jeff,

Is the "burned bridge and bare feet" phrase original? I haven't heard it before but it is perfect.

Best,

Larry F

[greg sextro]

Alex,

Your rates are perfectly reasonable. Make sure you are paid for any monies they owe you and move on. Respectfully decline their request and tell them you will not adjust your rates. Let them flounder to find an adequate replacement...

As Jeff said, they burned the bridge, but don't burn down another one by telling what complete (insert desired explicative here) they are.

Just my .02

[Toy Robot]

Thank you everyone for your generous input. These are exactly the types of outside perspectives I needed. I'm going to heed your seemingly unanimous advice, and will be polite about it when dealing with the client.

I think Greg summed up my intent very well:

As Jeff said, they burned the bridge, but don't burn down another one by telling what complete (insert desired explicative here) they are.

I enjoy being polite to clients even when they are in the wrong. The lessons they learn will almost always be harsher than any words I have for them.

[RPSharman]

You have lost this client, unfortunately. No way to fix it. Just be as polite and respectful as possible so you remain known as being calm and professional.

Perhaps you can say something like, "With all due respect, it takes years of experience to get years of experience. I can't teach what I know on the phone or via email. It's quite likely that if everything goes smoothly, that your less experienced guy will do just fine. What you pay an experienced professional for is to deliver results when things aren't going smoothly. I hope when you have more in your budget for sound, that you'll consider calling me again."

Robert

[afewmoreyears]

I have a different take, many won't like it..... Sorry...

You tried to be polite and professional.. they were not. What they asked of you was so far beyond being ethical, it STINKS like the Southbound side of a Northbound walking Mule. What they were asking was so Freeking rude and numbingly uncaring, it was just plain mean spirited.. How can you ask someone to train their replacement...? GALL....

NAPALM THE BRIDGE!!!!!!!!!! TO TINY UNRECOGNIZABLE SPLINTERS!!!!!! and go to sleep tonight knowing you had a backbone... Just tell them you thought it was rude and unprofessional... Tell them to have fun with their PA sound person.... and not to call anymore...

I agree that this relationship is over. When they ask you to train your own replacement, your done in their eyes... F#*K them... I don't believe you can pound "Class" into someone... either they understand being proper, or they don't... negotiating with them is futile at this point.

Personally, I don't care to work for people like that....

[Gerard-NYNY]

Be professional, but also realize they are stepping over the line and acting like assholes. If they call in the future tell them no thanks.

[OmahaAudio]

Yesterday I receive an email from the client telling me he's hired another sound guy for a shoot in location XX and flat out asks if I can teach that sound guy how to do sound for the shoot because he has no DSLR experience.

I'd think that a very simple, very polite, "go f**k yourself" would be in order although the "I'm unavailable" thing might be better.

[old school]

I feel your pain Alex. It makes the blood boil when this horse shit comes your way. Be a pro. Walk away. They need you more than you need them.

CrewC

[RPSharman]

It is very tempting to blow up the bridge and tell these folks off. I agree that I'd never want to work with people like that. Unfortunately many of these assholes know other people who may not be assholes. It's best to politely decline. This bridge is not the only one.

[taylormadeaudio]

I mentioned this once before here on JW, but thought it was fitting:

Irish Diplomacy:

"the ability to tell a person to go to hell in such a way that s/he looks forward to the trip"

Yeah, no sense being a dick about it -- only stooping to their level. If you say anything at

all, maintain composure -- and rest assured that you took the high road.

~tt