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Danny O'Caster

Workflow for Beginner. Advice needed.

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Hello folks,

 

Just signed up to this site, this is my first post.

 

This is a pretty basic question but would help me alot.

Can anyone talk me through some examples of workflow from capture through to exporting final audio. i.e repair, normalization, eq, compression. And what their go-to/favourite plug-ins / effects are. Please be as detailed as you like. ;) 

 

The setup I'm using the most is my Rode NTG2 into Zoom h6 into Logic or Cubase. I have also just recently bought RX Elements.

 

Thanks.

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My son is six years old and has only started to go to school 5 months ago. But he has already understood that there is no point in me reading his texts to him. He knows that he needs to read them himself in order to learn how to read. And when he does get stuck and has a concrete question, I can help him.

 

oh wait, maybe I should‘ve posted that in a „parenting for beginners“ forum. Nah, I‘ll just leave it here anyway

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3 hours ago, Constantin said:

My son is six years old and has only started to go to school 5 months ago. But he has already understood that there is no point in me reading his texts to him. He knows that he needs to read them himself in order to learn how to read. And when he does get stuck and has a concrete question, I can help him.

 

oh wait, maybe I should‘ve posted that in a „parenting for beginners“ forum. Nah, I‘ll just leave it here anyway

Shades of the Senator and I do mean that as a compliment.

Larry Fisher

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1 hour ago, LarryF said:

Shades of the Senator and I do mean that as a compliment.

Larry Fisher

 

Thanks for the compliment. He taught me well. 

Felt sort of ironic considering the other thread where people are praising Senator...

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21 hours ago, Danny O'Caster said:

talk me through some examples of workflow from capture through to exporting final audio.

Press the record button. Press the stop button. Pass the files to the person who is supposed to get them. If it's really complicated then you will have to do this at lunch time. 

 

21 hours ago, Danny O'Caster said:

repair, normalization, eq, compression. And what their go-to/favourite plug-ins / effects are.

Yeah, don't do any of this. Your just there to capture the sound. If you have to do any of this, your not doing your job in the first place. Another possibility is your being too hard on yourself with unrealistic expectations. 

 

21 hours ago, Danny O'Caster said:

Rode NTG2 into Zoom h6

Just focus on this for now.

 

As far as combining production and post production work, they are different worlds. Pick one plate and finish the meal. 

 

Try recording some lectures at a nearby school, or going to a concert and recording the performance from the crowd. I recommend start recording anything that interest's you. I used to always carry my Zoom H2, people thought it was a Tazer, so I kept the foam on the mics. I learned what not to do, let me put it like that. 

 

Volunteer or offer to work at discount and get involved with any video production in your area. Get your hands dirty, but be sure not take food off the table of any working sound mixer. 

 

Try to locate a working sound mixer in your area and buy him coffee/tea/beer/chocolate.

 

I know the recording process is overwhelming and the workflow can be confusing or daunting ( don't let the difficulty of treading water keep you from enjoying the pool). Don't be discouraged, and try to recognize when your burned out; give your self some credit and a break. 

 

 

Wooster or Worcestershire? Kidding, I know its pronounced Wooster. 

 

Welcome!

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Danny O'Caster said:

Can anyone talk me through some examples of workflow from capture through to exporting final audio. i.e repair, normalization, eq, compression. And what their go-to/favourite plug-ins / effects are. Please be as detailed as you like. ;) 

 

Welcome Danny,

 

So as you may be gathering, this place is mainly populated by professional location-sound people with years of experience. And you know what they say:

 

Good judgment comes from experience.

Experience comes from bad judgment.

 

So anyway, in addition to Dalton's suggestions, consider getting and reading this really good book written by one of our regulars (who, even though he's a postie, we let hang around. 😀). There are other books worth suggesting, but this one is the best place to start, imo:

 

http://www.greatsound.info

 

00PGS4eCoverSm.jpg

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21 hours ago, Danny O'Caster said:

Hello folks,

 

Just signed up to this site, this is my first post.

 

This is a pretty basic question but would help me alot.

Can anyone talk me through some examples of workflow from capture through to exporting final audio. i.e repair, normalization, eq, compression. And what their go-to/favourite plug-ins / effects are. Please be as detailed as you like. ;) 

 

The setup I'm using the most is my Rode NTG2 into Zoom h6 into Logic or Cubase. I have also just recently bought RX Elements.

 

Thanks.


I've got some pliars, a hammer, and some glue what's the workflow for repairing your teeth?

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Well well well, I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong tavern. Constantin, your son sounds bright for his age, I'm sure he will grow to be a fine young man, despite the condescention I imagine he will have to endure. Maybe your advice would be better received in a parenting forum.

 

Dalton and Jim, thank you for your advice and your welcome, it has been well received. :)

 

In the role I am in, I will be responsible for capturing AND processing the audio, and also creating any background music needed. I understand this is slightly different to the way most of you guys work. I'm really only interested in advice that can help me progress in this regard, not advising me to try different ways of working.

 

Thank you.

 

Dan

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Danny O'Caster said:

In the role I am in, I will be responsible for capturing AND processing the audio, and also creating any background music needed.

 

ah, that's easy then, and simple to explain in a couple of lines on a forum ; )

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On 2/26/2019 at 1:19 PM, Danny O'Caster said:

Well well well, I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong tavern. Constantin, your son sounds bright for his age, I'm sure he will grow to be a fine young man, despite the condescention I imagine he will have to endure. Maybe your advice would be better received in a parenting forum.

 

Dalton and Jim, thank you for your advice and your welcome, it has been well received. :)

 

In the role I am in, I will be responsible for capturing AND processing the audio, and also creating any background music needed. I understand this is slightly different to the way most of you guys work. I'm really only interested in advice that can help me progress in this regard, not advising me to try different ways of working.

 

Thank you.

 

Dan

 

 

You can absolutely do both jobs and have 2 meals if you want.  I was a production sound recordist for many years before I started doing post as well, and found that doing post made me much better at production work.  It is really helpful to know what can and what can't be fixed, to what extent and what the compromises involved are.  Get your gear together, ask lots of questions and don't be put off by the other guys at the bar here.  Movie sound is a field full of highly intelligent very independent people who have lots of opinions.  But those opinions are just that--opinions.  Someone above suggested the Gearslutz post audio forum, that's a good suggestion for the post side of things, as is the ProTools "DUC", as you probably already know.  This forum is the best place I have found for real-world-tested production sound knowledge, don't be intimidated or put off from asking specific production recording questions here because someone didn't take to how you asked.  This forum is searchable so try that for specific threads about the production gear you mentioned.

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30 minutes ago, Philip Perkins said:

and have 2 meals

Huh? TWO?
If I'm up and running I'm lucky to have just ONE (every week).
Get into welding school, better hours, better rates, better for your relation.
 

 

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1 hour ago, Danny O'Caster said:

Well well well, I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong tavern. 

 

Next time you really do stumble into a tavern, I‘d recommend taking a look around and acquainting yourself with the people and habits there before you ask them for free beer. 

 

Apart from that, I agree with Philip: do ask specific questions. 

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Hi Danny, and welcome.

 

It’s not so much that you are in the wrong tavern, perhaps more that you have walked up to the bar and asked the bartender along the lines of... ‘I have some cheap LIDL gin,and a soda stream, some Ikea glasses, I can bash a tune out on a piano, and I cook a mean cheese toastie. What should I do in order to get your job 😉

 

I understand that you are young, keen, and doing stuff with your (equally young and keen??) pals. I get it that you are ‘the sound department’. I also understand that in these modern times, with modern kit and software, it might seem/look like it is possible to do many or all of the jobs in the sound department, to do them well, and to do an amazing job of all of them. It might seem that way, but it is unlikely to work out like that. 

 

Many of the people here have specialised not only in a particular field (ie location recording), but also a specific genre (ie commercials, TV drama, feature films). They have, literally, honed their skills in their chosen field for many, many, years. They are at the top of their game, like the very best of the F1 drivers, or similar. Most often they have done that because they have found that the practicalities of multi skilling, of fitting in the ‘shooting’ schedule of the next job, with the post production schedule of the previous job, with the delivery schedule of the job before that, simply do not work out in their favour. It just doesn’t work in a diary.

 

I realise that you (by your own admission) are at the start of your journey, so it may be that you and your mates are doing one job at a time, and for now you can see one job through before starting to shoot the next. Long may that continue, but believe me if you get popular, or you get booked on a long shoot (many, many, weeks on a series or similar) and the post needs to be started before you have finished the shoot, it all goes to pot and you’ll end up needing to choose your specialism. I really hope that one day you are busy enough to have to make that decision.

 

In the mean time......

 

May I first of all suggest that you have some humility? If you are going to come on here and ask a bunch of pretty much top professionals how they do what they do, then please be prepared to humour us if some of us fail to give you the answers you asked for. I would advise against pissing off or answering back any of the responses you were given above. If you don’t like the answer, then shut up and suck it up, or say thanks and move on. People have long memories. We remember the modest folks, who asked nicely, and thanked us for sharing our wisdom. Not only do we remember those folks - we have helped and nurtured and encouraged them along the way. We have accepted them as the new blood, as the padwan in our craft. I hate to judge, but you have only made two posts in this thread, and I think you made two people pissed off already. That’s not a good start 😞

 

So now some advice....

 

Find one or some mentors, there are good people near you in Bristol - do some homework and see if you can find out who they are. Go to social and industry events in and around your area (see if you can find out about the sound department drinks in Bristol each month). See who you can get on with at these events, and nurture those relationships. See if there are mixers based locally (there are a few) who might take you out on shoots and show you how it works. Talk to people who work in post in Bristol, Cardiff, or Birmingham, and see if they might have you in to see how their sessions work.

 

Join an industry group/guild/body. The Institute of Professional Sound is a good one, based in the UK, see www.ips.org.uk. I used to be the Chairman so I am biased. Other industry groups are available. DO NOT assume that a free group will cut it. The IPS is a non profit organisation, we charge fees to be a member, and we plough as much of the fee income back into training events as we possibly can (the IPS is run almost entirely by volunteer labour). Our next training event is a weekend of presentations on Audio over IP, (DANTE, AES67, AVB, etc... to you and I). It is open to members and non members (they pay more) and it will, I know, be brilliant. It is in a couple of weeks time - you should be there..... you will learn stuff and meet people.

 

I wonder if your original question is just too broad.... ‘I have a Bosch drill and a really good set of very sharp knives. What do I need to know to be a brain surgeon’. Why not start with just a few specific questions, possibly as different threads, that are not quite so far reaching..... ‘Do any of you compress your mix track on your location recordings? What are your favourite settings?’, ‘What do you do to stop the music fighting the dialogue in the final mix?’ - even these questions may have huge and many and far reaching answers. 

 

Remember the 10,000 hour rule - you wil never be an expert at it until you have done it for 10,000 hours. It hurts, but generally, in almost every field, it is true. If you want to be an expert in location, post, and music, then that’ll be 30,000 hours please.... See you on the other side.

 

One last thing.... if ou’re going to be writing the music, then FFS refer to yourself as a composer. - it is not just ‘doing the music’ for the shoot. My mother is a composer, she has made her living at it for something over 65 years. She will be 89 this year. She practices the piano every day, to this day, for 90 or more minutes, and she tells me regularly that she learns something every time she plays and or puts pen to paper. 

 

Good luck Danny O’Caster - I’ll be watching out for you at an industry doo soon. Come find me... I’ll buy you a pint.

 

Oh... and remember the words to the crew, by the (very foreign, big accent) director on a BBC drama shoot some years ago..... ‘You lot all think I know fuck nothing..... but you are wrong... I know fuck all’ 😉

 

Good luck with the attitude, boy 😉

 

Simon B

 

 

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1 hour ago, Bouke said:

Huh? TWO?
If I'm up and running I'm lucky to have just ONE (every week).
Get into welding school, better hours, better rates, better for your relation.
 

 

Actually it ends up being just one, but a different one depending on the day.  In a small market versatility=survival.

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The broad initial question gives away your current experience, so I would suggest an internship of some kind. 20+ years ago I started in the live PA sound world, and that thought me so much about sound in general. Get's you a basic understanding of what everything does, what it all means etc. The good part of PA sound vs our line of work is it is a bigger industry so internships or working as a helping hand is much easier to get to vs. our smaller industry. 
From there on it is still a step towards broadcast/film sound and post, but you have a good set of basic knowledge. 
Yes you can go the "new" route of going complete the "internet-diy-read-a-book" way, but an couple of days with some experienced people will take years on the aforementioned road. 

 

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20 hours ago, Bash said:

Hi Danny, and welcome.

 

It’s not so much that you are in the wrong tavern, perhaps more that you have walked up to the bar and asked the bartender along the lines of... ‘I have some cheap LIDL gin,and a soda stream, some Ikea glasses, I can bash a tune out on a piano, and I cook a mean cheese toastie. What should I do in order to get your job 😉

 

I understand that you are young, keen, and doing stuff with your (equally young and keen??) pals. I get it that you are ‘the sound department’. I also understand that in these modern times, with modern kit and software, it might seem/look like it is possible to do many or all of the jobs in the sound department, to do them well, and to do an amazing job of all of them. It might seem that way, but it is unlikely to work out like that. 

 

Many of the people here have specialised not only in a particular field (ie location recording), but also a specific genre (ie commercials, TV drama, feature films). They have, literally, honed their skills in their chosen field for many, many, years. They are at the top of their game, like the very best of the F1 drivers, or similar. Most often they have done that because they have found that the practicalities of multi skilling, of fitting in the ‘shooting’ schedule of the next job, with the post production schedule of the previous job, with the delivery schedule of the job before that, simply do not work out in their favour. It just doesn’t work in a diary.

 

I realise that you (by your own admission) are at the start of your journey, so it may be that you and your mates are doing one job at a time, and for now you can see one job through before starting to shoot the next. Long may that continue, but believe me if you get popular, or you get booked on a long shoot (many, many, weeks on a series or similar) and the post needs to be started before you have finished the shoot, it all goes to pot and you’ll end up needing to choose your specialism. I really hope that one day you are busy enough to have to make that decision.

 

In the mean time......

 

May I first of all suggest that you have some humility? If you are going to come on here and ask a bunch of pretty much top professionals how they do what they do, then please be prepared to humour us if some of us fail to give you the answers you asked for. I would advise against pissing off or answering back any of the responses you were given above. If you don’t like the answer, then shut up and suck it up, or say thanks and move on. People have long memories. We remember the modest folks, who asked nicely, and thanked us for sharing our wisdom. Not only do we remember those folks - we have helped and nurtured and encouraged them along the way. We have accepted them as the new blood, as the padwan in our craft. I hate to judge, but you have only made two posts in this thread, and I think you made two people pissed off already. That’s not a good start 😞

 

So now some advice....

 

Find one or some mentors, there are good people near you in Bristol - do some homework and see if you can find out who they are. Go to social and industry events in and around your area (see if you can find out about the sound department drinks in Bristol each month). See who you can get on with at these events, and nurture those relationships. See if there are mixers based locally (there are a few) who might take you out on shoots and show you how it works. Talk to people who work in post in Bristol, Cardiff, or Birmingham, and see if they might have you in to see how their sessions work.

 

Join an industry group/guild/body. The Institute of Professional Sound is a good one, based in the UK, see www.ips.org.uk. I used to be the Chairman so I am biased. Other industry groups are available. DO NOT assume that a free group will cut it. The IPS is a non profit organisation, we charge fees to be a member, and we plough as much of the fee income back into training events as we possibly can (the IPS is run almost entirely by volunteer labour). Our next training event is a weekend of presentations on Audio over IP, (DANTE, AES67, AVB, etc... to you and I). It is open to members and non members (they pay more) and it will, I know, be brilliant. It is in a couple of weeks time - you should be there..... you will learn stuff and meet people.

 

I wonder if your original question is just too broad.... ‘I have a Bosch drill and a really good set of very sharp knives. What do I need to know to be a brain surgeon’. Why not start with just a few specific questions, possibly as different threads, that are not quite so far reaching..... ‘Do any of you compress your mix track on your location recordings? What are your favourite settings?’, ‘What do you do to stop the music fighting the dialogue in the final mix?’ - even these questions may have huge and many and far reaching answers. 

 

Remember the 10,000 hour rule - you wil never be an expert at it until you have done it for 10,000 hours. It hurts, but generally, in almost every field, it is true. If you want to be an expert in location, post, and music, then that’ll be 30,000 hours please.... See you on the other side.

 

One last thing.... if ou’re going to be writing the music, then FFS refer to yourself as a composer. - it is not just ‘doing the music’ for the shoot. My mother is a composer, she has made her living at it for something over 65 years. She will be 89 this year. She practices the piano every day, to this day, for 90 or more minutes, and she tells me regularly that she learns something every time she plays and or puts pen to paper. 

 

Good luck Danny O’Caster - I’ll be watching out for you at an industry doo soon. Come find me... I’ll buy you a pint.

 

Oh... and remember the words to the crew, by the (very foreign, big accent) director on a BBC drama shoot some years ago..... ‘You lot all think I know fuck nothing..... but you are wrong... I know fuck all’ 😉

 

Good luck with the attitude, boy 😉

 

Simon B

 

 

Simon, thanks for taking the time to write all this. Alot of this is really really useful. Yeah, I did react too much to the first initial responses, because... I am inexperienced. And those first comments made me feel even more so, so it felt good to throw some punches back rather than take the humbling learning blows. But lesson learnt on that one. Next time I wont ask for free beer until I've bought a round.

 

Also, I will refine my questions to be more specific. I can see that alot of threads on here are very specialized. I can see there is a wealth of info and alot of users, I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my attitude. I'm just here to learn and connect with people and try not to come across as a pleb.

 

and I'll take you up on the offer of that pint, thanks.. just don't call me boy, old man.

 

 

Also, thanks Vincent & Philip! 

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20 hours ago, Constantin said:

 

Next time you really do stumble into a tavern, I‘d recommend taking a look around and acquainting yourself with the people and habits there before you ask them for free beer. 

 

Apart from that, I agree with Philip: do ask specific questions. 

 

So territorial and insecure, like a little dog that claims the fire hydrant as his own. Hilarious and quite sad, actually.

 

Danny, I have found the site Transom very helpful for techniques for processing sound and suggesting workflows, etc. And - imagine this - it embraces beginners and folks outside of their immediate community.

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15 minutes ago, jwanek said:

 

So territorial and insecure, like a little dog that claims the fire hydrant as his own. Hilarious and quite sad, actually.

 

Danny, I have found the site Transom very helpful for techniques for processing sound and suggesting workflows, etc. And - imagine this - it embraces beginners and folks outside of their immediate community.

 

You said Transom and came to my mind this absolutely beautiful article for Walter Murch.
https://transom.org/2005/walter-murch/

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1 hour ago, jwanek said:

 

So territorial and insecure, like a little dog that claims the fire hydrant as his own. Hilarious and quite sad, actually.

 

Danny, I have found the site Transom very helpful for techniques for processing sound and suggesting workflows, etc. And - imagine this - it embraces beginners and folks outside of their immediate community.

Well, with only 8 posts so far I wonder how much interaction you've actually had here.  If you've been lurking then you'll know that quite a lot of good info changes hands if the questions are well researched, clear, concise and about motion picture production sound (ie not post or live sound except as they impact production sound).   Those of us that have been answering newb (and other) questions here for many years are not sad at all.  We're very glad Jeff started this forum.

 

To the OP--feel free to PM me with any production sound question you might have that you don't want to post publicly for any reason.

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3 hours ago, jwanek said:

So territorial and insecure, like a little dog that claims the fire hydrant as his own. Hilarious and quite sad, actually.

 

Joel,

 

Constantin has been around here forever and according to the counter under each of our pictures, he's posted over 3,700 times. My memory is that in the vast majority of those posts he has generously shared his experience, contributed an opinion to an ongoing debate, and generally made this a good place to be. In the bit your quote, yes he's a bit cranky; but he doesn't say "get out of here", instead providing a couple solid steps Danny can take to fit in.

 

Also, over the last few years, we've had a lot more noobs drop by here. I think some people are a bit tired of that. But newcomers are welcome, it just takes a while to get a sense of the culture, who to ignore and who to pay attention to. Worst case: hanging out here will toughen your skin so you'll be ready for this biz.

 

The deal is, imo, Danny asked a super-broad question along the lines of "How do I cook?" or "Any thoughts on how to make a documentary?" As has been said, searching the JWS archives will turn up some answers and a book or two can provide baseline knowledge. Then Danny can ask more specific questions and most comments will be helpful, if not uniform. Even already-debated (and IMO settled) questions like, "Should I use compression when recording on set?" or "Don't you agree that this $25 mic I found on eBay is better than a Schweppes?"

 

And yes, Transom.org is great. I love that site. But it's more of a collection of articles with some comments underneath; there isn't a forum where you can directly ask questions that aren't tied to an article. Nothing wrong with that, it's just fills a different function. Great recommendation, though!

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I agree with you Philip, this is a great resource and that's why I come here and have been coming here for some years now. There are many helpful posts and users here, alway. However, I will never understand why certain people feel offended and perhaps threatened when a beginner asks a question, and then actually make posts to express that sentiment. Why not call that sort of behavior out as well?

 

In any case, thanks (to you and others) for making it a valuable resource 🙏🏼

8 minutes ago, Jim Feeley said:

 

Joel,

 

Constantin has been around here forever and according to the counter under each of our pictures, he's posted over 3,700 times. My memory is that in the vast majority of those posts he has generously shared his experience, contributed an opinion to an ongoing debate, and generally made this a good place to be. In the bit your quote, yes he's a bit cranky; but he doesn't say "get out of here", instead providing a couple solid steps Danny can take to fit in.

 

Also, over the last few years, we've had a lot more noobs drop by here. I think some people are a bit tired of that. But newcomers are welcome, it just takes a while to get a sense of the culture, who to ignore and who to pay attention to. Worst case: hanging out here will toughen your skin so you'll be ready for this biz.

 

The deal is, imo, Danny asked a super-broad question along the lines of "How do I cook?" or "Any thoughts on how to make a documentary?" As has been said, searching the JWS archives will turn up some answers and a book or two can provide baseline knowledge. Then Danny can ask more specific questions and most comments will be helpful, if not uniform. Even already-debated (and IMO settled) questions like, "Should I use compression when recording on set?" or "Don't you agree that this $25 mic I found on eBay is better than a Schweppes?"

 

And yes, Transom.org is great. I love that site. But it's more of a collection of articles with some comments underneath; there isn't a forum where you can directly ask questions that aren't tied to an article. Nothing wrong with that, it's just fills a different function. Great recommendation, though!

 

Thanks Jim, you're always extremely gracious and helpful in your responses (in all forums - you're everywhere!).

 

IMO, Constantin's first response to Danny was quite condescending and not helpful.

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You can learn a lot by just reading the threads here. You won’t have to ask any questions, you will find the answers and more. 

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On 2/26/2019 at 1:19 PM, Danny O'Caster said:

Well well well, I seemed to have stumbled into the wrong tavern. Constantin, your son sounds bright for his age, I'm sure he will grow to be a fine young man, despite the condescention I imagine he will have to endure. Maybe your advice would be better received in a parenting forum.

 

Dalton and Jim, thank you for your advice and your welcome, it has been well received. :)

 

In the role I am in, I will be responsible for capturing AND processing the audio, and also creating any background music needed. I understand this is slightly different to the way most of you guys work. I'm really only interested in advice that can help me progress in this regard, not advising me to try different ways of working.

 

Thank you.

 

Dan

 

 

 

Wait.....someone hired you to do sound for production and post but you've never done either before????

Your kidding, right?

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