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Cedar SDNX available on 8 series.


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https://store.sounddevices.com/product/cedar-sdnx/
 

good news, but at the same time, a bit disappointing as I bought Noise assist a few weeks ago ...

 

from the FAQ:

 

I’ve already purchased NoiseAssist. Is there any discount to apply towards CEDAR sdnx?

The 8-Series offers two excellent options for noise suppression, each purchased separately. There is no discount from one to the other or vice-versa; each is a totally independent purchase.

 

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I wonder what the plan is in terms of the 8 series product lifespan?  Are they going to sell the current lineup for the next say 10 years?  Because it would be a bummer to buy say an 888 and load it up with thousands of dollars of plugins only to find out that something totally new comes out to replace it a year later and it's now EOL.  At least with hardware it usually holds some sort of value but you can't "unregister" the software plugin to sell third party to someone else if you don't want it anymore.

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8 minutes ago, codyman said:

I wonder what the plan is in terms of the 8 series product lifespan?  Are they going to sell the current lineup for the next say 10 years?  Because it would be a bummer to buy say an 888 and load it up with thousands of dollars of plugins only to find out that something totally new comes out to replace it a year later and it's now EOL.  At least with hardware it usually holds some sort of value but you can't "unregister" the software plugin to sell third party to someone else if you don't want it anymore.

I expect the 8-series to last around 10 years. People are still using the 788 if that is any indication.

If you charge appropriately for using any of the plug-ins purchased there should be no concern about selling when the recorder’s lifespan ends. You will have profited very nicely.

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4 minutes ago, JoshuaT said:

I expect the 8-series to last around 10 years. People are still using the 788 if that is any indication.

If you charge appropriately for using any of the plug-ins purchased there should be no concern about selling when the recorder’s lifespan ends. You will have profited very nicely.

You are correct about it being a tool for profit making.  If it is indeed as venerable as the 7 series was, then there will be a lot of value for it.  The pessimistic side of me regarding technology and how quickly it develops (and how we've turned into a society of planned obsolescence) just makes me wonder!

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This is a good question--if you bought a Cedar license for your DAW you could move it to a new DAW.  Can this license be moved from one 8-series machine to another?  If a licensed 8-series recorder is stolen or damaged beyond repair, can the owner of the license then license a new machine?  And, as was said, if one wants to upgrade to whatever the next series is, can you take your license with you?   Can you sell your license to another user?   One big diff between this system and DAWs is that they are charging you per enabled-channel, so the cost adds up pretty fast.

 

That said, for NR, Cedar is the shit.

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SD should look at the iLok model.

 

The recorder is your "key" and you use an application on a connected computer to add or remove software licensing. Upgrading your mixer? Remove your license from the old mixer, add it to the new one. Transfer licenses between main and backup units if one has to go back to the mothership for service. For that matter, if you own a license you could add it to a rental unit, just remember to remove it before return.

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2 hours ago, Allen Rowand said:

SD should look at the iLok model.

 

The recorder is your "key" and you use an application on a connected computer to add or remove software licensing. Upgrading your mixer? Remove your license from the old mixer, add it to the new one. Transfer licenses between main and backup units if one has to go back to the mothership for service. For that matter, if you own a license you could add it to a rental unit, just remember to remove it before return.


Yes, I strongly agree with this. At this price point I would not even consider it, if I couldn’t move from one recorder to another. I

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10 minutes ago, Constantin said:


Yes, I strongly agree with this. At this price point I would not even consider it, if I couldn’t move from one recorder to another. I

Unrelated however spiritually related, this is why I still like physical media for films and music (especially films).  A lot of people are plopping in their credit card numbers to "buy" movies on iTunes / Amazon etc digitally however if you read the terms and conditions, you actually don't own those movies and they can be revoked from your account on a whim for a myriad of reasons.

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Any thoughts on SDNX vs Noise Assist and why the former is better?  I tried both on my 8 series and it seemed that the SDNX did not change the volume of the vocal signal but reduced the background A/C whereas the Noise Assist works well but in comparison creates a lower level and when this is cranked up to match that of the SDNX then one starts to hit the limiter and the noise, although still reduced, is louder and harsher than SDNX.  At three times the price, it is hopefully better, any "experts" here have some input on the comparison?

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All other plugin licenses from SD are encrypted/hashed with recorders serial thus bound to the specific recorder. All functionality are already in firmware.

The purchases are final.

One could hope that SD will honor and fully top up any previously bought plugins in case one have to return a machine to them which later turns out to be beyond repair.

But who know. Would be great if they could make an official statement.

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16 hours ago, Allen Rowand said:

Yeah, kind of an ugly move.

Yup. Imagine if Sound Devices had "plugins" back in the era of the 7 and 6 Series?
How much would they for instance have charged for automix firmware update in the 633/688, a thousand bucks perhaps?

15 hours ago, codyman said:

Because it would be a bummer to buy say an 888 and load it up with thousands of dollars of plugins only to find out that something totally new comes out to replace it a year later and it's now EOL. 

It's also a bummer to have purchased an 8 Series and to have realized the price you paid for its isn't the real cost at all, but rather the true hidden cost over its lifetime could potentially add up to even higher than the original purchase price?! If someone went all in on what it's capable of. 

 

12 hours ago, Allen Rowand said:

SD should look at the iLok model.

There is a lot of hate for the iLok model as well, as it just yet another hurdle to jump through and another way for things to glitch on you. Would you want your recorder to fail on  you out in the field at a critical moment because the "iLok authentication" had a hiccup? No thanks. 

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11 hours ago, codyman said:

Unrelated however spiritually related, this is why I still like physical media for films and music (especially films).  A lot of people are plopping in their credit card numbers to "buy" movies on iTunes / Amazon etc digitally however if you read the terms and conditions, you actually don't own those movies and they can be revoked from your account on a whim for a myriad of reasons.

 

Totally agree!

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1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Yup. Imagine if Sound Devices had "plugins" back in the era of the 7 and 6 Series?
How much would they for instance have charged for automix firmware update in the 633/688, a thousand bucks perhaps?

It's also a bummer to have purchased an 8 Series and to have realized the price you paid for its isn't the real cost at all, but rather the true hidden cost over its lifetime could potentially add up to even higher than the original purchase price?! If someone went all in on what it's capable of. 


That is absolutely ridiculous. I so disagree with that. I‘m totally fine with SD charging for their additional plugins. You can mix amd match whatever you want and need, I totally don’t see the issue. The price you paid is the price to get what you wanted to get at the time of purchase. Now you get even more out of your recorder if you want to. 
I interpret your response to mean that you would have preferred an entirely new recorder, 8-series Mk ii, with NoiseAssist included. Then another recorder, Mk iii, with Cedar, and so on. Is that really better? 
With SD‘s approach you can keep your recorder and just expand it. 

Right here in JWSound we‘ve been dreaming of a more modular approach to recorder production and there was talk plugins, too. Now they are giving it us and all we do is complain that a company actually wants to earn some money while giving us what we want. 
I absolutely agree with their approach and don’t mind paying for this if I I think I really need it. So what that I only just bought NoiseAssist. At current prices I would still choose NA , because I don’t really need either and can’t justify the expense. 
There will always be a time when you buy something and shortly after a new product comes along that makes you wish you hadn’t bought that other thing. That’s life. Just grow up and accept that, you’ll have a much easier time. 

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2 hours ago, Constantin said:

I interpret your response to mean that you would have preferred an entirely new recorder, 8-series Mk ii, with NoiseAssist included. Then another recorder, Mk iii, with Cedar, and so on. Is that really better? 

No, you completely missed my point. 
Was there a new 6 Series every time a substantial firmware update came along? Of course not!
Was there a 633mk2 / 688mk2 with automix? Of course not!
Instead it was just a natural development of the 6 Series, with firmware updates released for all. 

Clearly Sound Devices has taken a 180 Degree turn around with their business practices since then. 
Now, I'm not in this particular post passing judgement on that, they can run their business as they wish. 
But I am highlighting that this significant change has occurred, and wishing I'd known it was coming. Well, now we know, any substantial update for 8 Series that they think they can charge for, they will. 

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Cedar has always been "gives-you-pause" expensive, a major investment for people buying it and a wish list thing for everyone else, at least in post.   SD cranking up the price of their machines to the point that they could give you Cedar for free (as they do with Dugan, I would point out) would make them uncompetitive with other machines in their class.  I really don't think anyone has an issue with having to pay extra for Cedar, and I wish the earlier machines had the mojo to run it too.  But the plug in is expensive enough that I think some kind of iLok style security might be in order: a system that protects the maker in only allowing you to run it on one machine at a time, but also protects the buyer who then could move it from machine to machine, or even sell it if they wanted to.  I understand the point of view that Cedar for SD should be looked at the same way as their hardware accessories, but in these times we don't have to be limited in how we can use machine add-ons that are purely firmware anymore.  I hope they consider this notion.

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5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

No, you completely missed my point.

 

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

It's also a bummer to have purchased an 8 Series and to have realized the price you paid for its isn't the real cost at all, but rather the true hidden cost over its lifetime could potentially add up to even higher than the original purchase price?

 

Doesn't feel like I missed your point, but maybe I did, you'll know better. But there is definitely no hidden cost. and only true cost. I guess it's just because I'm having trouble understanding what the big issue is. And I know we've had this discussion before, but I still don't get it. Yes ok, SD changed their business model slightly. They could have charged for MixAssist on the 788, but didn't likewise on the 6-series. I would not have minded back then, and I understand it now. On the software side this happens all the time. You can get ProTools First for free, but then as you move up it gets more expensive. Same with your car. You can get a basic model, or you can add things to it at an extra fee. Like my current car: when I bought it, you could get it with certain features, then a year later they added automatic parking to the payable upgrades. I so wanted that (for the fun of it), but there was no upgrade path even though it was still the same model. 

Sound Devices are making it easy for us. You can add to your recorder, make it better, help you to bill production for additional services and earn more money, and you get to keep your recorder, and you can opt out simply by doing nothing. What on earth could be wrong with that? 

 

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20 minutes ago, filmsalang said:

Zoom will take over soon.

I don't see that happening anytime soon. I used the Zoom F8 for a while before upgrading to SD. Zoom's preamps just don't sound as clean and their capabilities just don't stack up in my opinion. Zoom's have their place and are nice, but no SD. 

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OK, my opinion, we got what we paid for buying the 8 series with the specs it included.   Because it is powerful enough to add apps that cost extra, this doesn't mean that they should be freebees, and in fact I think the profit margin was likely less than one might imagine on the units but higher on add on software and hardware (SL-2 or CL-16).  That being said if anyone is taking it in the shorts it is the retailers that sold the units, they don't get a cut of these apps extras even though they sold the original units.  I think Gotham Sound has more of a gripe than I do.

 

All that being said, any opinions on the usefulness of SDNX vs Noise Assist?

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Comments and discussion regarding plugin topology and licensing are certainly something we are watching.

 

And yes this is a "new" business practice for Sound Devices; we have never before had the opportunity to bring an entire hardware-box worth of realtime processor-intensive signal processing to a portable product. NA is far outside the scope of our normal, and comprehensive, free firmware updates. Those continue just like we have since we started firmware updates with the 744T, in 2004. We know many users won't consider using noise reduction. If it isn't relevant for your applications, that choice is yours. If it is, again you have options.

 

CEDAR is solely in the noise reduction business and has been honing their algorithm for years. It is an incredible tool. Sound Devices' development of our own NoiseAssist algorithm took years of development by our resident big brain (https://www.prosoundweb.com/sound-devices-welcomes-dr-steve-popovich-as-software-engineer/) working with Matt and his team of software and hardware engineers. And either tool can be added to the recorder because of the 8-Series' prodigious computational power. Noise reduction as implemented here is vastly different than attenuating an input like we, and others, do with automatic mixing.

 

 

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